Shintoesque D&D

[Haltherrion]

The idea of one worshipper, or one priest dedicated to a single spirit is actually laughable in polytheistic cultures. We are mortal they are immortal, if you can commune with one, you can commune with them all.

If you implement spirits in your campaign in lieu of gods, I'd certainly recommend allowing the priests to worship multiple ones. In the ancient world people offered to any god or spirit they thought might be of use.

For most game systems, it might be better to restrict the number who grant actual powers but you can still allow for 2, 3, or whatever. Actually makes it kind of interesting if you have many spirits and many many more combinations of worshipping the spirits.

 

[Korgoth]

In general, a decent idea. One thing of focus....



Locking a member of a class to a location may make some form of sense, but it is a pain it the butt for a character in a game - their power goes away if they leave town? This may be one of those times when world design has to bow a bit to the fact that you're trying to tell a story with characters who are mobile.

I think this also asks for us to consider that "religion" means in this context. What does it mean to be a "holy person" in this world? Is religion the devotion to one specific spirit, or is religion the devotion that allows you to deal well with the spirits, in general?

You're correct... the presumption of the Cleric class always seems to be that you can be an itinerant. It's an adventuring class, and going on adventures means leaving home.

So the Cleric adventurer must be someone who knows certain rituals and/or has a special relationship with the spirits. My tendency is to think that there is some ritual purification to be observed, so that the mortals are worthy to come before the spirits: ablutions, supplications, etc. A Cleric knows these and can do them as part of his or her class.

My thought was that the Cleric's powers come from the spirit or spirits he personally venerates, but obviously he probably pays homage to all of them (at least "the gods"... he's not expected to pay homage to demons, only to be polite to them in order to avoid being eaten). If one goes with the suggestion upthread that additional powers are enabled by establishing relationships with more spirits over the Cleric's career, then this can be worked out either explicitly as a condition for leveling or left to be implied.

But yeah, I think the concept of religion in general in this kind of setting must concern proper relationships with all the spirits, and the rites of purification. Since there's no idea of a caretaker of the afterlife per se, it probably also involves prayers to the dead ancestors. Perhaps everyone born in the vicinity of a spirit shrine is connected to that shrine spiritually (even if they relocate) and under the nominal care/administration of the spirit who rules there (and thus the need to propitiate the spirit, or if worse comes to worse get some adventurers to kill it off and hope for a better tenant!).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Perhaps everyone born in the vicinity of a spirit shrine is connected to that shrine spiritually (even if they relocate) and under the nominal care/administration of the spirit who rules there

"I know you, and you are mine!"

My thought was that the Cleric's powers come from the spirit or spirits he personally venerates, but obviously he probably pays homage to all of them

Borrowing from the OA shaman, perhaps PCs with a connection to the divine have learned to speak to particular kinds of spirits better than others. Shamans can talk to ancestors or nature spirits, as I recall...but why not break it down further? So, a cleric with the fire and war domain communes with fire spirits, and has some communication with great warrior spirits. A Druid, OTOH, may speak to all kinds of natural spirits- wind, fire, animal, plant, etc.- but may not be able to commune with the dead.

In all cases, the divinely connected PC is aware of the other spirits...perhaps can even perceive them from time to time...but communication is essentially impossible. Politeness and displays of respect, however, would always be possible.

Effective? Maybe not.

 

[Shades of Green]

I think that this is one of the best, most inspirational threads created on ENWORLD in the last few years. It simply opens so many doors in my imagination, bypassing many of the things which have led me to DM burnout and to a writer's block.

I'm SO going to use this for my Wounded Gaia setting; I was already thinking about something in this direction, but this thread gave me so much inspiration. Sure, Wounded Gaia has two major gods with world-wide influence, Vesna/Marzanna (the Mother Goddess/Gaia) and Koschei (the Clockwork God), but these are distant, inhuman gods. So most people worship local "gods" (or spirits? or fey? I still have to decide on the term).

The beauty of this thread's idea is that religion becomes a matter of PC-NPC interactions, with a lot of "gods" of varying power adding color and flavor to the setting. These could range from very, very minor gods such as the household Domovoi to mighty forest-gods (treants?). I might even move Aboleths and Dragons (and a lot of other monsters) from being "normal" physical creatures to being "gods".

Just think of making all, or most, Aberrations into weird "gods". The Spirit World has its own rules, so you don't have to think about the ecology of Aboleths or Beholders - they are weird "gods" inhabiting weird places. Now, if benefit could be gained by worshiping them, this gives us a great hook for all these strange, Cthulhu-eque cults...

In 4E terms, Rituals might be possible to perform only by "gods"/spirits, but anyone - including non-heroic NPCs - has the potential of convincing one to perform these rituals with the right reasoning, flattery, service and/or bribe. Of course, a layman might have a significant chance of offending the "god" in the process, leading to dire consequences... Or of being tricked into doing nefarious things for a particularly nasty "god"....

 

[Haltherrion]

I think that this is one of the best, most inspirational threads created on ENWORLD in the last few years. It simply opens so many doors in my imagination, bypassing many of the things which have led me to DM burnout and to a writer's block.

Excellent

I find inspiration in the ancient world kind of settings, especially ones centered more on the heroic-warrior cultures of the Celtic and Germanic worlds. You see a medieval flavor most often (and I've run pleny of those; they are fun) but the middle ages has always been problemmatic to me based on a monotheistic culture, and by the high middle ages, larger scale nations, armies and the like.

The Celtic and Germanic societies, especially as they saw themselves and in the tales offer a rich world of spirits, present gods not that aligned with the desires of mortals (specially love the Norse ones) and small, warrior focused combat where single combat still matters. I'm aware that by late iron age, these societies fielded larger armies but they still saw themselves on a smaller scale and by the dark age, they were on a smaller scale. It's a chance to live the world of Beowulf, the arthurian legends (stripped of the high middle ages trappings), the late pre-viking and early viking ages.

I've always been surprised there hasn't more focus on it as a D&D setting. Seems to serve both the spirit and the scale of D&D better, IMHO

The beauty of this thread's idea is that religion becomes a matter of PC-NPC interactions, with a lot of "gods" of varying power adding color and flavor to the setting. These could range from very, very minor gods such as the household Domovoi to mighty forest-gods (treants?). I might even move Aboleths and Dragons (and a lot of other monsters) from being "normal" physical creatures to being "gods".

It's a very rich way to bring the divine on-scene. Typically, it is off scene and distant unless you try really hard to bring it in through a formal church, temple, a priestly hierarchy. But add the spirits and now you have "special" NPCs that make the divine all around and always present.

My players have really gotten into the interactions with the spirits and seem to enjoy them purely for the RP as well as the more crunchy stuff they can offer. Your idea to center them on all sorts of different creatures makes good sense; best to have many and make them unique in powers, form and above all personality. Crotchy spirits are a hoot

 

[Meek]

My players have really gotten into the interactions with the spirits and seem to enjoy them purely for the RP as well as the more crunchy stuff they can offer. Your idea to center them on all sorts of different creatures makes good sense; best to have many and make them unique in powers, form and above all personality. Crotchy spirits are a hoot

I find roleplaying spirits to be really fun and rewarding myself.

For some of the spirits in my games I like to take inspiration from medieval christian drama, stuff like in "Everyman" and "Wisdom." I took a course on medieval religious drama and I was charmed by the personified characters of the virtues and vices. A lot of times I make my spirits direct personifications of concepts and objects, and I think "what would Knowledge be as a person?" Then I try to tweak that to break any initial stereotypes and throw a couple curveballs. Anybody can think of Knowledge as an old man, but what about Knowledge as a young, eager guy who knows all this stuff, and really wants everyone to learn more, but is afraid of it all being abused, as it has been for untold centuries already?

Though sometimes I just stick in a simple anime foxgirl or something

EDIT: I found a bunch of the texts if you want to suffer from REALLY old school drama.

http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/playtexts.htm

I also recommend the Digby cycle Mary Magdalene and The Castle of Perseverance, in addition to Everyman and Wisdom. All of those have personified characters, but I thought the vices and the kind of "cosmology of evil" present in Mary Magdalene and Castle of Perseverance were nifty.

 

[WizarDru]

There are plenty of ways to approach this material. One thing that needs to be considered is whether there is any specific moral code associated with anything other than veneration. In Shinto, there are many Kami of varying power and potency. The local village headman may have been so loved that after his death a shrine is built and he becomes a local kami from their worship.

But a local great tree is cut down by a greedy merchant...and now rises when angered as the Angry Stump God, threatening travelers along the western road. Kami can be worshipped, battled or reasoned with....and their powers may increase or decrease. Take the Water Spirit or No-Face from "Spirited Away". Not what they first appear and very different in powers, tone and vulnerabilities.

Many Shinto priests or priestesses follow rituals and codes that appease or derive power from multiple kami. They may be dedicated to one shrine or many. How this factors into an adventuring life is an exercise left to player and DM.

When I ran a GURPS Japan game, my players did things like fight a giant toad that was a malicious local kami...and then had to escort a crotchety old Tea Master to perform a ceremony his hubris had forced him to accept with a local kami in the heart of a dangerous dark woods. The 'Angry Stump God' I mentioned above was a challenge for the players that turned out to be a couple of thieves pretending to be a kami. And so on.

The real question is determining the behavior of the kami. There's only two reasons to worship them, usually. For their favor and protection...or to keep them away. Maybe you're cutting trees down and offering veneration so that the Mountain Spirit doesn't eat you...or maybe you hope for good luck in the new year. Figuring out that key question will guide a lot. One would assume that kami and priests have no association with a simple moral code, but a complex system based around their interests. The Orochi cares little about your petty wars...he merely demands you not pollute his river with your bloody corpses or offal. The Peach Blossom Woman provides bounty to the members of the village...because she cares for them like a mother. She would give herself up to save them. The Orochi will KILL YOU ALL.

 

[SKyOdin]

For future reference, the general term for this kind of world-view is "animism". I am actually in the planing stages for a campaign that is very much dominated by the idea of animistic gods dwelling in rivers and mountains. I think bringing gods closer to home and making monsters into more than wild animals gives a world a much more mythological feel.

BTW, while Nifft brought up the idea of conflict between older animistic/polytheistic religions and later monotheistic/idealistic religions, I have to recommend the opposite. Japanese religion in particular is actually based on the concept of religious syncretism, where individual people practice multiple different religions at once. In Japan's case, there has for centuries existed a mix of traditional Shinto with various forms of Buddhism, folk practices, imported Hindu deities, and Confucian beliefs. In particular, Buddhism is seen as the religion people go to in regards to death and similar issues, while people go to Shintoism to pray for good fortune in their current lives. It is also not at all unusual to see a Shinto deity like Inari enshrined in a Japanese Buddhist temple.

There are similar syncretic combinations of animistic or polytheistic religions with monotheistic religions elsewhere in the world, such as the mix of various local folk religions with Catholicism that can be seen in countries like Haiti or even in European religious practices. I think it would be an interesting idea for a D&D setting to have Clerics worshipping a monotheistic divinity alongside Shamans venerating and dealing with local spirits and gods.

 

[gamerprinter]

It's said that the Japanese are Shinto in life, and Buddhist just prior to Death.

Not quite true, but Shinto is animistic being of the kami of the river, forest, mountain, but also birth, coming of age, marriage. Shinto is about everyday life. Once you die, you become kami.

Buddhism, that path to Enlightenment, is greatly concerned about the afterlife, Shinto is not. Burial rites and grave stones are a Buddhist element - not Shinto.

I know that my Japanese grandmother consulted a seer (fortune teller) on many occasions, though a Shinto Miko does this, also folk religions often practice this, and in my grandmother's case it was the latter.

Yeah, so Kudos to SkyOdin who said it better than I.

GP

 

[Nifft]

BTW, while Nifft brought up the idea of conflict between older animistic/polytheistic religions and later monotheistic/idealistic religions, I have to recommend the opposite. Japanese religion in particular is actually based on the concept of religious syncretism, where individual people practice multiple different religions at once. In Japan's case, there has for centuries existed a mix of traditional Shinto with various forms of Buddhism, folk practices, imported Hindu deities, and Confucian beliefs.

Yeah yeah, religious toleration and liberal social policies are great in real life, but they are useless in my RPGs because they don't provide any justification for stabbing people and taking their stuff.

What I want out of my RPG religions are conflicts, schisms, vendettas, millennium-spanning grudges, and some light healing after a fight.

Cheers, -- N