Shooting Into Combat

[Olaf the Stout]

This situation has come up the last few sessions. I made a decision which I think is correct but I just wanted to double check with some people that have greater Rules Knowledge Fu than me.

When shooting into melee you normally incur a -4 to hit. This can be negated with the Precise Shot feat. What happens if the baddie that is in melee has cover from your ally? See below:


x ----------- Bad Guy
0 ----------- Ally


0 ----------- Archer with Precise Shot

Does the bad guy get a +4 AC due to your ally granting him cover or is that what the -4 for shooting into melee takes into account?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Squire James]

The cover penalty (or bonus to foe's AC) applies normally, and is a separate issue from firing into melee. An archer lacking Precise Shot in your situation would have a -8 to attack the foe: -4 for firing into melee and +4 to the foe's AC for cover (which you might as well put down as another -4 attack penalty).

Improved Precise Shot reduces cover bonuses, and some prestige classes and non-core feats negate less than total cover entirely. Normally, the archer build is very high on the attack bonus in order to overcome this sort of thing.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

This is kind of what I had figured. So in my example the archer would have a -4 to hit for firing into melee (unless he had Precise Shot) and the bad guy would have +4 to his AC due to his melee opponent providing him with cover. Overall it is effectively a -8 or the archer's attack unless he has precise shot. Correct?

Olaf the Stout

 

[javcs]

Yep, though, there are a few feats that reduce or negate AC bonuses from cover.

Imp Precise Shot, as previously mentioned, though I thought it negated soft cover, Sharp-Shooting, +2 instead of +4, there're a bunch of others, I just can't remember them all right now.
Class features from archery/ranged PRCs do this too.
I think Order of the Bow Initiate grants Sharp-Shooting as a bonus, could be wrong.

 

[Legildur]

Bad guy definately gets +4 AC bonus due to soft cover from archer's ally.

Sharp Shooting works really well at low levels - particularly in dungeon crawls - but becomes redundant when Improved Precise Shot becomes available. If you are building a higher level character then IPS is the way to go... but if you're starting at a low level, then it's hard to pass up Sharp Shooting (effectively +2 attack bonus in most circumstances) even though it will likely be a wasted feat at a later time.

 

[Vurt]

IIRC, the Coordinated Shot feat from Heroes of Battle also lets you ignore the cover bonus provided by allies when firing into melee.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Olaf the Stout]

What book(s) are the Sharp Shooting feat and the Order of the Bow Initiate prestige class from?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Sound of Azure]

Both the Order of the Bow Initiate and the Sharp-Shooting feat are in Complete Warrior, page 68 and 105 respectively.

 

[Random Axe]

What about the fact that in melee both combatants are assumed to be moving back and forth and all around, dancing for a better attack? I would think that the Ally doesn't give "cover" to the bad guy, it's only a melee situation that the Precise Shot is designed to affect. I wouldn't double up the penalties for shooting at this bad guy.

 

[Infiniti2000]

What about the fact that in melee both combatants are assumed to be moving back and forth and all around, dancing for a better attack?

It's irrelevant because it supports neither position. I could just as easily suggest that the dancing around will interfere with your shot more than them standing stock still.

I would think that the Ally doesn't give "cover" to the bad guy, it's only a melee situation that the Precise Shot is designed to affect.

Then you would think wrongly.

Have the bad guy take a full attack and then take a 5ft-step 'north' (based on the graph). No more -4 penalty for being in melee, so you still don't give any other penalty?

I wouldn't double up the penalties for shooting at this bad guy.

You're not doubling up the penalties. You're applying a penalty that signifies you being careful not to shoot your buddy and another, separate value to your target's AC as soft cover.

Unless you remove cover from the game, you cannot just ignore the bonus to AC your target gains.