D&D 5E Short Rest Spellpoints (+)

[Blue]

Experiences at my table with spell points had that mid-Tier 2 and higher, casters would use mostly* highest level slots in combat because they were the most efficient in terms of action use, run out of spell points, then push for a short day. Moving to per-short rest eliminates this problem by reducing the nova capacity and recharging multiple times per day.

(Mostly = highest or one down, and some low level slots for utilities like Shield.)

A concern I have is casters using utility spells. Any use of them will put a big dent into the spells available until the next short rest, while with the long rest model (SP or slots) those slots are depreciated over the whole day. In other words, I wouldn't want to make players have the perception that if they cast outside of combat they may be hamstringing themselves in combat.

A 5th level caster using a single Fly spell would have 5 SP left over for two encounters - another 3rd level spell or a 1st and a 2nd. That's at most two actions (assuming no reaction/bonus action casting) out of likely 6-10 rounds for two combats. Cantrips need to be vigorous in cases like that - maybe granting more cantrips known would help with this.

How do you picture this interacting with the Wizard's Arcane Recovery and the Circle of Land Druid's Natural Recovery? Those are both short rest abilites to recover slots, but each short rest will fully recover "slots" already.

 

[Xeviat]

A concern I have is casters using utility spells. Any use of them will put a big dent into the spells available until the next short rest, while with the long rest model (SP or slots) those slots are depreciated over the whole day. In other words, I wouldn't want to make players have the perception that if they cast outside of combat they may be hamstringing themselves in combat.

A 5th level caster using a single Fly spell would have 5 SP left over for two encounters - another 3rd level spell or a 1st and a 2nd. That's at most two actions (assuming no reaction/bonus action casting) out of likely 6-10 rounds for two combats. Cantrips need to be vigorous in cases like that - maybe granting more cantrips known would help with this.

Well, currently, a 5th level caster only has 2 3rd level slots a day, so a 3rd level slot should be pricy. But, I'd probably be shifting to Hard/Deadly encounters as the norm and have rests after those encounters as the norm. Easy encounters would be the only ones I'd stack against them.

How do you picture this interacting with the Wizard's Arcane Recovery and the Circle of Land Druid's Natural Recovery? Those are both short rest abilites to recover slots, but each short rest will fully recover "slots" already.

Those are short rest abilities, but the ability refreshes on a long rest. So I'd probably tweak them to being an extra pool of spell points that recovers on a long rest, and let them use them to augment their casting. Same with Sorcery points.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Wow very cool. I like spell points a lot. I wish the sorcerer used them by default.

Just curious - why did you depart from the system in the DMG?

Thanks. As I've said, our table likes it.

I went away from the DMG variant mostly for ease of calculation. SP = Level x 4 + ability modifier for full-casters. Level x2 or Level for others.
Spells cost 1 point per spell level.

Pretty simple for the most part.

 

[Xeviat]

See this thread about wizards and this post in particular.. That should give you a good start.

Good discussion, but it doesn't get too deep into what I'm worried about, such as short rest healing and overuse of low level utility spells.

 

[Blue]

Comparison: Warlock vs. "closest SP fit" proposed:

Level	Warlock	Caster (2*lvl SP)
2nd	2x 1st	2x 1st
3rd	2x 2nd	2x 2nd
5th	2x 3rd	2x 3rd
7th	2x 4th	2x 4th + 1st
9th	2x 5th	2x 5th + 2x 1st
11th	3x5th + 6th	5th+4th + 6th
13th	3x5th + 6th,7th	5th + 6th,7th
15th	3x5th + 6th,7th,8th	6th,7th,8th
17th	4x5th + 6,7,8,9	7th,8th,9th

Early levels are around the same, with the extra flexibility of SP actually allowing a bit more power from traditional casters. In Tier two they start to get more spells as well as the flexibility in how they use slots.

In their 3 & 4 it all falls apart. Starting at 11th they have one less 5th level spell and another 5th downgraded to 4th. At 13th it's just one 5ths level slot vs. 3. At 15th they only have the Mystic Arcanum spells, missing 3x 5th level. And at the rarified heights of 17th level they don't even have all the Mystic Arcanum, much less the other slots.

This isn't saying they need to use their SP in this configuration, this was just closest fit to the Warlock to compare.

 

[Xeviat]

Early levels are around the same, with the extra flexibility of SP actually allowing a bit more power from traditional casters. In Tier two they start to get more spells as well as the flexibility in how they use slots.

In their 3 & 4 it all falls apart. Starting at 11th they have one less 5th level spell and another 5th downgraded to 4th. At 13th it's just one 5ths level slot vs. 3. At 15th they only have the Mystic Arcanum spells, missing 3x 5th level. And at the rarified heights of 17th level they don't even have all the Mystic Arcanum, much less the other slots.

This isn't saying they need to use their SP in this configuration, this was just closest fit to the Warlock to compare.

The standard Spell Point Rules have limitations on the number of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells you can make. I'm thinking They'd need to be done like Mystic Arcanum in the end anyway.

 

[Xeviat]

I'm going to be running a new game soon, starting at 5th level, hopefully going to 12th (Red Hand of Doom converted to 5E). I'll have a Cleric and a Warlock in the same group. I was working with my partner on her Warlock, and realized started to feel that invocations are a lot of fun. The other casters lack that little extra bit of customization.

I'm wondering if I switch things to short rest recovery, might it be prudent to rebuild everyone onto the Warlock Chasis?

I still need to figure out how to deal with more short-rest healing. The Celestial Warlock already has it, and Bard/Warlocks could always get it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm going to be running a new game soon, starting at 5th level, hopefully going to 12th (Red Hand of Doom converted to 5E). I'll have a Cleric and a Warlock in the same group. I was working with my partner on her Warlock, and realized started to feel that invocations are a lot of fun. The other casters lack that little extra bit of customization.

I'm wondering if I switch things to short rest recovery, might it be prudent to rebuild everyone onto the Warlock Chasis?

I still need to figure out how to deal with more short-rest healing. The Celestial Warlock already has it, and Bard/Warlocks could always get it.

Healing surges?

 

[FrogReaver]

One thing you could do in your system is make the long rest caster preprep the slots they will have until the next rest.

Some resources can still be long rest in the model - you don't actually have to convert sorcery points to refresh on short rests (they would just restore spell points instead of spells).

Likewise the wizards arcane recovery could be the same way.

 

[FrogReaver]

Other thoughts -

If you would normally give 10 spell points maybe increase that to 14 after a long rest. Then recover 10 after the first short rest. The recovery 8 for every subsequent short rest. You would still net 32 spell points as opposed to 30 over 3 rests but it would help with allow casters to feel better about using some early on in the day for utility.