Shot on the Run

[ARandomGod]

I agree with the RAW, in this case. I don't see any reason to allow archers to jump out from behind cover, fire multiple arrows, then jump back behind cover and be completely protected. Spring Attack doesn't allow multiple attacks. Ride-By Attack doesn't allow multiple attacks. There's no reason why Shot On the Run should be any different.

1) I agree with you in the main

2) Reasons why it should be different. I can see such reasons. In the main, becuase manyshot is sitting right there, a block in the feat road. It should either not be in that tree, or maybe be a branch OFF that tree but not required later... Otherwise... Well, I've played characters who would only use that manyshot feat in that way. I've played other archer characters who *did not use a bow* and hence found manyshot to be completely useless, and yet still for some strange reason required along their desired feat tree.

But really, what does this "shot on the run" allow? When I thought it combined with manyshot was the only time I thought it was useful. I mean, how fast do you think I run? Mounted is another question, but once again, really, another tree type.

 

[ARandomGod]

Given that it's what the author of the feat intended, the wording serves its purpose admirably.

-Hyp.

This just made me laugh.

"But I got all wet and muddy when I fell in the puddle" - Random Person

"That's what's supposed to happen. You should rejoice. Being wet and muddy is GOOD!" - My imagined Hyp response based on the above.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"But I got all wet and muddy when I fell in the puddle" - Random Person

"That's what's supposed to happen. You should rejoice. Being wet and muddy is GOOD!" - My imagined Hyp response based on the above.

"Good" is a subjective value judgement, though.

"That's what's supposed to happen. See? The puddle works!" would be closer

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But really, what does this "shot on the run" allow? When I thought it combined with manyshot was the only time I thought it was useful. I mean, how fast do you think I run? Mounted is another question, but once again, really, another tree type.

Shot On The Run allows an archer to stand with his back against a wall (total cover, with all that implies), duck out from behind the wall and fire off a shot, then duck back behind the wall for total cover.

Essentially, it allows an archer to spend an entire battle with full cover, so long as a melee-type doesn't head around the wall.

With a good tank or two, this provides virtual immunity from attack (full cover blocks all missile fire, and blocks all spells that require line of effect, which is most of them.) The trade-off is that you only get to make one attack each round.

 

[atom crash]

Shot On The Run allows an archer to stand with his back against a wall (total cover, with all that implies), duck out from behind the wall and fire off a shot, then duck back behind the wall for total cover.

Makes me wonder why the feat is called Shot on the Run. Especially since it can't be used while running. Maybe the feat should be renamed Shot on the Move. Or Crapshoot.

 

[Thanee]

Lord Pendragon, but you have heard of Ready Actions, yes?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Lord Pendragon, but you have heard of Ready Actions, yes?

Sure I have. Like Spring Attack, a readied action is a good way to try and damage the Shot On The Run archer. But in that case you're not only giving up all your attacks for one attack at the archer, you're also gambling that the archer will continue in a consistant pattern for you to take advantage of. Remember that if you ready an action and that action doesn't happen, you lose your readied action.

This is, IMO, where tactics truly start to kick in in 3.x. Once you get to the point where the PCs and their foes have several different combat options, you need to start thinking several moves ahead. Readied Actions can trump Shot On The Run, but they're a gamble, and if Shot On The Run is used cleverly, will lose the ready-er more actions than they bring the archer damage.

Makes me wonder why the feat is called Shot on the Run. Especially since it can't be used while running. Maybe the feat should be renamed Shot on the Move. Or Crapshoot.

It's Shot On The Run because you can use it "on the run" i.e. you could use it to move between points of cover on an open field, taking a single shot and advancing every round, while remaining behind full cover.

I could see a case being made for "Shot On The Move" since running is a game term and, as you point out, you cannot run--as the game defines it--and use this feat. I don't know why it'd be called "Crapshoot" though, since it's a reliable and viable tactical feat.

Consider the archer behind the wall again. We'll call the archer behind the wall (with Shot On The Run) "Archer" and we'll call the opposing archer "Fighter."

Round 1: Archer steps out from behind cover, fires one arrow, ducks back behind the wall.
Round 1: Fighter readies an action to fire at Archer when he comes out from behind the wall.

Round 2: Archer takes a 5'-step out from cover...
Round 2: ...Fighter's readied action goes off, and he fires an arrow at Archer...
Round 2: ...and Archer fires off a full attack (using rapid shot, of course) at Fighter.

Round 3: Fighter fires a full attack at Archer.
Round 3: Archer fires a full attack at Fighter, 5'-steps back behind the wall.

Round 4: Fighter (figuring the archer is going to step back out and full attack him again, and not wanting to lose his full attack) delays.
Round 4: Archer steps out from behind cover, fires off one arrow, and ducks back behind the wall.
Round 4: Fighter curses and calls Archer's mother indecent names.

Shot On The Run isn't fantastic if you use it all the time. But then neither is Power Attack. But it's a fantastic tactical option that allows archers to use cover to a much greater advantage than they can without it.

 

[billd91]

Given that it's what the author of the feat intended, the wording serves its purpose admirably.

-Hyp.

Actually, while the author may have intended that the Manyshot feat won't work with Shot on the Run, the wordeing clearly does not serve his purpose admirably. Had it done so, no Sage intervention would have been necessary. The problem was the ambiguity of using the term 'standard action' when any attack action used with Shot on the Run must also be a standard action (as opposed to a full action). The initial wording of Manyshot should have included the caveat that it cannot be used with Shot on the Run to avoid that problem.

 

[Thanee]

Sure I have. Like Spring Attack, a readied action is a good way to try and damage the Shot On The Run archer. But in that case you're not only giving up all your attacks for one attack at the archer, you're also gambling that the archer will continue in a consistant pattern for you to take advantage of. Remember that if you ready an action and that action doesn't happen, you lose your readied action.

What I was getting at is, that if there is someone who is dedicated to damage the archer, than you'll just trade full attack against full attack or single attack (shot on the run) against single attack (the ready action).

If there are other targets available, the opponent will just shoot someone else and ignore the archer, who then only weakens his own party, since he's doing less attacks.

In most cases, the SotR archer loses out.

That doesn't mean, that there are no situations, where SotR is useful, but I think they are pretty few. Often a simple full attack will be better than fancy SotR action.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

What I was getting at is, that if there is someone who is dedicated to damage the archer, than you'll just trade full attack against full attack or single attack (shot on the run) against single attack (the ready action).

This isn't true. You'll note in my previous example that the Archer gets two full attacks for the Fighter's every one. Why? Because the Fighter can't know when the Archer is going to full attack, and when he's going to use Shot On The Run, and the Fighter has to choose whether to Ready An Action or Delay without knowing that. It becomes a guessing game, and it's one the Archer never loses, he can only break even (full attack vs. full attack or single vs. single) or win (full attack vs. single attack). Assuming the Fighter guesses wrongly 50% of the time, the Archer will make 2 full attacks to the Fighter's every 1, and twice as many single attacks (since half the time the Fighter chooses to Delay, the Archer will use Shot On the Run, denying the Fighter any attacks.)

If there are other targets available, the opponent will just shoot someone else and ignore the archer, who then only weakens his own party, since he's doing less attacks.

In my experience, absolutely not true. The archer (in general) has a worse AC and worse HP than the frontline fighters, and is also farther away from the cleric. If the archer can shift attacks away from himself and onto the fighters (who will have a much better chance of not taking any damage from them) he's doing his party a service. He's saving healing by not taking massive damage himself and he's saving the cleric time and effort to counter the healing that is needed by not requiring him to run out to his position. He also keeps himself from being killed, which also saves the party resources.

That doesn't mean, that there are no situations, where SotR is useful, but I think they are pretty few. Often a simple full attack will be better than fancy SotR action.

IMO, it depends on the kinds of combat terrain your DM usually provides you with. If most of your battles are on open plains or in large, empty rooms, then Shot On The Run is going to see very little use. There's no way to take advantage of it.

If, OTOH, you find yourself in forested areas, chambers with pillars and statues, mazes, running through town squares, etc., then Shot On The Run will pay off well.