D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[pemerton]

Tanis and basically every fictional half elf whose half elven nature didn't take supplemental material to sus out.

Yes, Tanis's story, which should be one unique to Dragonlance (or perhaps just those areas Tanis traveled in) got spun out into the notion that every half-elf is a bastard child rejected by both parents.

Maybe because I didn't see much Half-Elf play in the 2nd ed era, this isn't something I've come across. In Rolemaster, and 4e D&D, and now in my Torchbearer game, Half-Elves have one human and one Elven parent, but don't particularly bring this Tanis stuff with them.

 

[Minigiant]

Can I address this specific point for a moment: Do we need "Racism, the species?" Do we need a species that's backstory paints elves and eugenic nazi's and humans as intolerant xenophobes? Is that story really worth telling and if it is, can't it be told with aasimar and tiefling just as easily? The idea that the half-elf is disowned by both its parent species is about as outdated as the nonsensical elf/dwarf hatred.

Honestly, even if they do introduce some variant of half-elf and half-orc (hopefully, in the context of some grander system of hybrid species) I hope the whole "you are hated/feared by your parent species" backstory gets chucked in the bin.

Back to this.

Neither of this are the sole core backstory of this species anymore.

And even if the species can have an angle with racial relationships involved, it isnt inherently bad unless you make it so.

It sounds more like some what these species to only have an offensive racism angle and would rather remove them than develop something else, reate new ones or acknowledging what new ones that already exist.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Why not? It’s how it is in the real world.

Ugh. No.

Not for all of us.

And for those that it does happen to, maybe the game doesn't need to rub it in their faces with glee?

 

[Minigiant]

Because the implication is that it paints elves as bigots and humans as xenophobes. And sure, some of them are, but if the default story is one of half-elves not having a place in society. And they're supposed to be the "good guys".

Why are they distrusted?

You could easily have a situation where half elves, half orcs, half dwarves be trusted diplomats and go betweens between their two parent species.

It could be seen that a being that is a mixed species of elf and human or elf and orc might understand the two parent races better in order to facilitate trade deal and diplomatic agreements. 5e even says this

Nope. Everybody has to be a bigot and a xenophobe. Because tradition.

Heck we don't even need to have half elves be only human elf. A half elf could be a halfling elf or an orc elf if we choose that those are the mixtures that create half elves as well.

Nope. New ideas are bad. It's sticking to old offensive ideas or nothing.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Nope. New ideas are bad. It's sticking to old offensive ideas or nothing.

Isn't the whole argument here that we need to cling to a couple of old outdated ideas forever and add them to the SRD because tradition?

 

[TiQuinn]

Why not? It’s how it is in the real world. Plus like I said only a 1/2 elf can grow a beard.

Nothing stopping you from including it in your own game.

 

[Minigiant]

Isn't the whole argument here that we need to cling to a couple of old outdated ideas forever and add them to the SRD because tradition?

That idea is not outdated.
The lore is. And only that form of the lore.
The 5e lore is fine.
People just want to bring back the offensive 1e-3e lore.

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is the cause of 50% of 5e's issues.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Where does this idea of disowned/hated feared come from?

I think it was @Hriston who posted the info from AD&D upthread:

Monster Manual (p 39): "All half-elves are of human stock. They are handsome folk, with the good features of each of their races. They mingle freely with either race . . ."​

​

Players Handbook (p 17): "Half-elves do not form a race unto themselves, but rather they can be found amongst both elvenkind and men. For details of the typical half-elf see ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, MONSTER MANUAL under the heading Elf."​

And on the racial preference table (PHB p 18) Elves feel Goodwill towards Half-Elves (the second-highest level after Preferred). Human attitudes are the next level down, Tolerance, meaning that among humans Half-Elves are "generally acceptable, if not loved."

The 4e D&D PHB says this (p 43):

Half-elves usually adopt the dress and hairstyles of the society they spend the most time with . . . Half-elves have no culture of their own and are not a numerous people. They usually bear human or elf names, sometimes using one name among elves and a different one among humans. Some are anxious about their place in the world, feeling no kinship with any race, except other half-elves, but most call themselves citizens of the world and kin to all.​

That is more fleshed-out than AD&D, but doesn't imply rejection or dislike by others. The same page also says that

they are charismatic, confident, and open-minded and are natural diplomats, negotiators, and leaders. . . . They like to establish relationships with humans, elves, and members of other races so they can learn about them, the way they live, and how they make their way in the world. . . . They are generally well liked and admired by everyone, not just elves and humans. . . . Half-elves naturally inspire loyalty in others, and they return that feeling with deep friendship . . .​

So that's pretty much the opposite of the rejection/dislike thing.

I had a look at the D&D Beyond page for Half-Elves. It includes this: "Half-elves have no lands of their own, though they are welcome in human cities and somewhat less welcome in elven forests." That last clause can be read a few different ways, and is not as strong as rejection or fear.

The 3E PHB (p 18) is similar, though it changes the source of possible wariness, and is also a little bit contradictory:

Half-elves do well among both elves and humans . . . In human lands where elves are distant or not on friendly terms, however, half-elves are viewed with suspicion. . . .​

​

Half-elves . . . are welcome in human cities and elven forests.​

Pulling the 2nd ed AD&D PHB of the shelf, I see that it is pretty similar to 1st ed except it adds the following (p 22):

in some of the less-civilised nations, half-elves are viewed with suspicion and superstition. . . . Half-Elves . . . can be found living in both elven and human communities. The reactions of human and elves to half-elves ranges from intrigued fascination to outright bigotry.​

That last-quoted clause contradicts the earlier observation that "They mingle freely with either race" which seems to be taken directly from the AD&D Monster Manual. Nevertheless, maybe it is 2nd ed AD&D - influenced by Dragonlance? - that introduces this fear/rejection notion.

A lot of it in D&D does come from Dragonlance I think, where racial prejudice is a major part of the story in Chronicles and elsewhere. But similar themes take place all over fantasy literature, and I see seeking to erase said themes from the most famous fantasy RPG as a strike against storytelling for everyone because some people don't want it in their games.

Is D&D only supposed to draw from fantasy that @Remathilis and @TiQuinn prefer?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Critical Role also did the same trope with Vex and Vax. It’s just…can we not?

You are welcome not to. Why feel the need to police what stories others tell?

 

[Micah Sweet]

You would love shadowdark

I've heard many good things, and would love to get into a game. The book is a great read at least.