D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[harlokin]

No healing surges was my vote

I find it quite dispiriting how many people reject any concept of Healing Surges (in whatever form /whatever compromise) out-of-hand.

 

[Naszir]

I feel like going in circles.

i'll agree with you that the going from negative hps to up and running again was a jarring point in 4e. That was something I didn't particularly like. However, I think the idea of healing surges can be improved upon and I would like to see that done. Though I can see them in some form as an option rather than as part of the core game.

 

[CleverNickName]

I agree, and I find it quite dispiriting how many people reject any concept of Healing Surges (in whatever form /whatever compromise) out-of-hand.

As you pointed out, it is not a minor issue, but there is no way I can countenance going back to having to rely on magic...

I don't reject it out of hand, I reject it because it wrecks my suspension of disbelief. I don't have a problem with characters being able to heal themselves, as long as they are able to use a plot device that makes sense according to the story. As problematic as potions, wands, and healing magic are, at least they offer a plausible explanation in this make-believe game. Binding one's wounds, catching one's breath, etc., are all fine and good for bar fights---but without the benefit of magic, how does one suddenly explain how the guy who was burned half-to-death by dragon fire ten minutes ago is able to calmly and painlessly press onward as if nothing had happened?

(This is probably a bias on my part. One thing that drives me absolutely crazy in movies is how someone can get shot, then tie a dirty bandanna around the wound and carry on as if nothing ever happened, and by the next scene the wound is gone and forgotten. See also: hot-wiring a car and driving away, completely oblivious to the fact that steering wheels will lock without the key. But I digress.)

I don't argue the need for characters to heal themselves, especially in high-combat games. What I dislike is the method by which they do so. At least with the wands, potions, and such, you have a viable excuse as to how this happens (magic). It's an old one, and it's over-used...but it works for me.

Others might not agree or conform to my play style, and that's fine. That's why I think healing surges should be kept separate from the 5E core, and released in a book of alternate rules for low-magic campaigns.

 

[Siberys]

Sure. Take a few ranks of heal in 3e and spend a couple of night in bed and you are good to go again.

Fighting through the pain is already IMO a part of the hp system, since loss of hp doesn't make you fight worse.

See, that's the thing. The way I've always seen things, you aren't hurt enough to need bed rest until you've hit 0 and /can't heal/ for whatever reason; in 4e, you need to be out of or unable to activate HSs, and down. That's part of why HP loss doesn't make you fight worse - it's not doing enough to make you fight worse until you've dropped.

I mean, how else would you reconcile the HP yo-yo that's around in every edition of D&D? I mean, 3.x doesn't have explicit healing surges, but it does implicitly - how many potions and cure spells have you got?

I'm not intentionally trying to fight against them (I don't even play 4e anymore), they just don't work for me - like they don't to at least some others. That other people, like you, do like them and can explain them well enough is beside the point.

Fair enough. I don't necessarily mean you're actively fighting them, only unconciously. It just bugs me when someone says they flat out don't make sense, because, well... It's demonstrably untrue. :/

IMO, this all ties in with conception of what HP is. If you're like me, and see HP as 95% grit, luck, and skill, and 5% wounds, and that those wounds are only "there" in the last bit of damage, and the actual nature of that damage is fluid based on effects that might be later used... it's a lot easier to accept HSs for nonmagical healing. When you're binding your wounds, you're not stuffing your intestines back in your stomach and tying a shirt over it, you'r wrapping bandages over a few fairly minor cuts and bruises.

 

[harlokin]

I don't reject it out of hand, I reject it because it wrecks my suspension of disbelief. I don't have a problem with characters being able to heal themselves, as long as they are able to use a plot device that makes sense according to the story. As problematic as potions, wands, and healing magic are, at least they offer a plausible explanation in this make-believe game. Binding one's wounds, catching one's breath, etc., are all fine and good for bar fights---but without the benefit of magic, how does one suddenly explain how the guy who was burned half-to-death by dragon fire ten minutes ago is able to calmly and painlessly press onward as if nothing had happened?

(This is probably a bias on my part. One thing that drives me absolutely crazy in movies is how someone can get shot, then tie a dirty bandanna around the wound and carry on as if nothing ever happened, and by the next scene the wound is gone and forgotten. See also: hot-wiring a car and driving away, completely oblivious to the fact that steering wheels will lock without the key. But I digress.)

I don't argue the need for characters to heal themselves, especially in high-combat games. What I dislike is the method by which they do so. At least with the wands, potions, and such, you have a viable excuse as to how this happens (magic). It's an old one, and it's over-used...but it works for me.

Others might not agree or conform to my play style, and that's fine. That's why I think healing surges should be kept separate from the 5E core, and released in a book of alternate rules for low-magic campaigns.

I can appreciate the point of view. Part of the issue comes down to what Hit Points are; a measure of damage taken, or an abstract of luck/determination/heroism/whatever.

With the former, it is inexplicable that everybody fights at maximum effectiveness, until they topple over.

With the latter losing 50% of your Hit Points to Dragon Breath, isn't actually getting "burned half to death", therefore various methods of Hit Point recovery become potentially reasonable.

 

[Izumi]

The problem here is you're fighting against healing surges; if you try to work with them, they're perfectly sensible from a nonmechanical standpoint. They're an abstraction. Nothing more.

It's the exception-based worldview of 4th that allows for these mechanics. When you consider it from that angle the abstractions are perfectly sensible.

 

[Siberys]

See, though, even in the most simulation-minded RPG, there have to be abstractions. Exception-based design has nothing at all to do with that. BAB, skill points, HP, speed, ititerive attacks, saving throws, damage - name a mechanical anything in any edition. It's abstracted to some level. If HP itself is so fundamentally abstract (and it is; need I pull out the short essay in the 1e DMG on the matter?), why not the healing?

 

[Izumi]

What I was saying is how does a commoner who at max health has 5 hp but was damaged and down to 1 hp is fully healed by CLW. However, our hero who at max health has 30 hp and is down to 1 hp only gets a scratch healed by CLW?

If you don't take the mortal wound until a hit drops you to 0hp why does it take days and weeks (if you like to play old school) to recover hit points that don't represent physical injuries?

Healing surges try to take this part of the game into account.

That's the thing, hp is not necessarily "health points".
The recovery time has always been a issue of debate, and nobody agrees on how long it should be or how much actual physical/mental wounds a loss of hit points entails.

 

[Hassassin]

I mean, how else would you reconcile the HP yo-yo that's around in every edition of D&D? I mean, 3.x doesn't have explicit healing surges, but it does implicitly - how many potions and cure spells have you got?

Not sure what you mean here... In 3e if you get hurt bad enough to require a couple of days' bed rest, you've lost about 20-50% of your hp. After drinking some potions you don't need that, since the magic healed you.

Fair enough. I don't necessarily mean you're actively fighting them, only unconciously. It just bugs me when someone says they flat out don't make sense, because, well... It's demonstrably untrue. :/

That's why I try to be very clear in saying they don't make sense to *me*. Obviously they do to others.

IMO, this all ties in with conception of what HP is. If you're like me, and see HP as 95% grit, luck, and skill, and 5% wounds, and that those wounds are only "there" in the last bit of damage, and the actual nature of that damage is fluid based on effects that might be later used... it's a lot easier to accept HSs for nonmagical healing. When you're binding your wounds, you're not stuffing your intestines back in your stomach and tying a shirt over it, you'r wrapping bandages over a few fairly minor cuts and bruises.

Ok, the way I look at hp is that your total hp depend mostly on skill, but damage is all about getting hurt.

You lose 1% of your hp in one hit - the attack barely touched you. You lose 10% - going to leave a bruise, at least. 50-100% - if you are still up, your skill was all that prevented that from being a mortal wound, going to take days to heal completely.

You can see how this kind of interpretation is possible in 3e, but not in 4e. (Yes, even in 3e some things, like cure spells, don't work perfectly, but I'd like to see that fixed rather than add more obstacles.)

I'm not saying that's the perfect way to imagine it, but it's the way I'm used to. The mechanics of earlier editions did, IMO, mostly encourage this.

 

[Naszir]

I don't reject it out of hand, I reject it because it wrecks my suspension of disbelief. I don't have a problem with characters being able to heal themselves, as long as they are able to use a plot device that makes sense according to the story. As problematic as potions, wands, and healing magic are, at least they offer a plausible explanation in this make-believe game. Binding one's wounds, catching one's breath, etc., are all fine and good for bar fights---but without the benefit of magic, how does one suddenly explain how the guy who was burned half-to-death by dragon fire ten minutes ago is able to calmly and painlessly press onward as if nothing had happened?.

You are assuming all damage is physical. But it is not. Why should it take days and weeks for a character to recover from being a little winded in combat?

(This is probably a bias on my part. One thing that drives me absolutely crazy in movies is how someone can get shot, then tie a dirty bandanna around the wound and carry on as if nothing ever happened, and by the next scene the wound is gone and forgotten. See also: hot-wiring a car and driving away, completely oblivious to the fact that steering wheels will lock without the key. But I digress.)?.

This drives me crazy too.

I don't argue the need for characters to heal themselves, especially in high-combat games. What I dislike is the method by which they do so. At least with the wands, potions, and such, you have a viable excuse as to how this happens (magic). It's an old one, and it's over-used...but it works for me.

But why would a character need magical healing for the abstraction of hit points that represent that the character has become exhausted from combat?