Should a DM change an official NPC?

[Flexor the Mighty!]

No offense intended, but the only reason I can see a player arguing against it would be because he wants to use OOC knowledge to get an advantage. If someone really believes he needs that to "win" my campaign or that I am trying to "cheat" by changing things, he is better off leaving the group.

Exactly. Or if somone is such a fanboy that he will lose all enjoyment if the latest novel is being invalidated by the GM's plot. But who wants to play with such folks anyway?

 

[Grazzt]

Should DMs change the stats of official NPCs?

Yes- if it fits with your ideas for your campaign. I mean, it is your campaign afterall, and if you want an NPC (even an official one) to be a certain level, have certain abilities, etc. then by all means change it.

For example, the Cat Lord from the ELH is a 37th-level rogue. Suppose you think he should only be 20th-level. Then make the changes to reflect it. Is it bad? No. Is it wrong? No. Should everyone use your new and improved Cat Lord? Only if it fits into their idea of the Cat Lord and fits their campaign. Will some people complain? Yes. They always do. Does that mean you are wrong for changing it? No, of course not. And anybody that says otherwise needs to go back and read the books.

Its your game, you change it as you see fit. WotC gives you the tools and materials. You build your game from those tools and materials changing, adding, subtracting, as you see fit. Whatever works best for your game is how you should do it.

Can it ruin continuity of the game, and the trust of the players?

The only continuity would be the continuity you instill in your game. Can it ruin it? Yes, if you let it. Ruin the trust of the players? No. If anything it keeps them on their toes.

Suppose you have a player that knows Elminster like the back of his hand. Well, you change your version of Elminster and give him a few levels of assassin. The player screams and complains "Thats not how he is in the ELH!"

Guess what? So what. Its your game. If you see Elminster having a few levels of assassin, give them to him. Remind the players, that it is your game, and in your game, that is how it works. There is no right way or wrong way to play D&D. There is only the "fun" way.

 

[Oni]

If we ask would it be ok to change the stats of an official NPC, then lets also ask the reverse.

Why wouldn't it be ok to change the stats of an official NPC? Answering that question will provide insight into the first, I think.

 

[greymarch]

My gaming group has been together for over 14 years now, and we play in the Forgotten Realms. We demand an authentic Forgotten Realms campaign. When we fight Drizzt, we want to fight the official Drizzt, not some 19 year old geek's version. When we travel to Cormyr, we might want to visit Arabel, not some pathetic town the DM saw on an episode of Xena. To my gaming group, we are not playing D&D, and not playing a Forgotten Realms campaign, unless we stick as closely as possible to the most current, official rules created by the owners of those products (WOTC.)

IMO, the moment a DM changes an NPC, you are no longer playing in the official WOTC provided campaign. You are now playing in the DMs home-brewed campaign. My gaming group has absolutely no interest in playing home-brewed campaigns. We have spent FAR too much money on our D&D and FR books to allow a DM deviate from them.

Another rule my gaming group follows is that the DM is not the final word on a subject. We prefer to use a much more democratic approach. If a rules question, or some other type of problem occurs, we take a vote. Majority wins, but the DM's vote counts as two votes, and all ties go to to the DM. We have followed this rule for 14 years, and have no plans on changing it. When you have a more democratic approach to problem-solving, it is more likely that all the players will abide by the rule, because everyone had a chance to be counted in the decision. If the DM in our campaign simply said "it's my way or the highway gentlemen" I can guarantee that my gaming group would immediately quit playing with that DM, and find someone else to replace him.

 

[RobNJ]

My gaming group has been together for over 14 years now, and we play in the Forgotten Realms. We demand an authentic Forgotten Realms campaign. When we fight Drizzt, we want to fight the official Drizzt, not some 19 year old geek's version. When we travel to Cormyr, we might want to visit Arabel, not some pathetic town the DM saw on an episode of Xena. To my gaming group, we are not playing D&D, and not playing a Forgotten Realms campaign, unless we stick as closely as possible to the most current, official rules created by the owners of those products (WOTC.)

If you went to Arabel, and affected a change in the power structure, would you still be playing in Arabel, or would you be playing some collection of 19-year-old geeks' abortion of a mockery of a pale shadow of Arabel?

I mean, I don't see how you can use precisely what's in the books, and have an adventure that changes anything. Are your characters not permitted to make their mark on the world?

Furthermore, I wouldn't want to be constrained by the imaginations of the people who wrote the Forgotten Realms books. Most of them are extremely badly written, not a patch on what my friends and I are capable of. The FRCS book is very well done, but it has to conform to the imagination of some of these limited authors, and therefore parts of it may not be up to the standards I expect.

This isn't really an attempt to get you to change your mind, I just wanted to react to what you had to say.

 

[barsoomcore]

greymarch:

I have no words to express how diammetrically opposed our ideas of what Dungeons and Dragons should be are. I cannot even imagine how what you have described is even fun.

But that's the great thing about this game -- it allows people with ideas of fun as drastically different as you and I to play with the same rules and still enjoy ourselves!

Wow. I don't even understand what you do. Have you had the same DM all these years? I... Wow.

It never occured to me that what your group does was even possible. I need to put this as a general question:

Do other groups play like this? Am I a freak for finding this incredibly bizarre?

No offense, greymarch -- I'm not saying that YOU are bizarre, or even that the way you play is bizarre, just that it is far beyond anything I ever conceived of. You have truly floored me. That doesn't happen very often. But it may be that your way is actually the more common way. I'm curious.

I mean, I know that Forgotten Realms is popular, but I don't know a thing about it. I've never had the slightest interest and it surprises me that so many people use it. As a DM, my primary value in D&D is getting to make up my own world. That's pretty much WHY I run games, so any campaign setting to me is nothing more than a bunch of material to plunder.

Okay. Sorry, ran on for a little bit there. I'm babbling. I'll stop now.

 

[greymarch]

Furthermore, I wouldn't want to be constrained by the imaginations of the people who wrote the Forgotten Realms books. Most of them are extremely badly written, not a patch on what my friends and I are capable of.

I consider the WOTC material to be far better than 99% percent of the OGL garbage floating around the internet, and being sold at hobby stores, and 99.9% better than any average D&D DM can create. Its irrelevant anyhow. My gaming group wants to play an authentic Forgotten Realms campaign. The quality of the material doesnt matter.

 

[Buttercup]

Wow, greymarch. Your group's take on D&D is sure different than anyone else's that I've talked to. You are welcome to it, of course. That's the beauty of D&D. Your group plays the way they want, my group plays the way we want, and everybody's happy.

I will never, but never, run a Forgotten Realms campaign, because too many players know too much about it. I think the novels are poorly written dreck myself, and although the 3E stuff is beautifully done, it's been tainted with all the decades of bad fiction. (IMO, of course.) I also think that playing in such a well known setting encourages meta-game thinking in the players, and that's something I just won't tolerate. Lucky for me, my players are more intrested in discovering the world around them than in seeing something they already know everything about.

Rule zero. Learn it. Love it. Live it.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I can understand the desire to stick to an official campaign world as closely as possible, but if you've really stuck to published WotC FR stuff for that long...well, you must be their favourite customers.

I'm impressed, but somehow slightly worried. Surely your DM wants to put a little of his own stamp on the world? Counter argument - of course you could say that the DM does put his spin on the world by choosing which adventures you play.

Ho hum. Never mind me.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

i'm with you barsoomcore and buttercup, i've never heard of a group being run this way. so now i'm curious...

greymarch - what was the intent of your original post? was it to find out if others have gaming groups like yours, or are you having trouble with a new DM?