Should a DM change an official NPC?

[ColonelHardisson]

I feel that NPCs, monsters, and virtually anything else printed by WOTC should not be changed, so the verdict is not unanimous.

If you're a player, then how would you know they've been changed? If you're a DM, then why shouldn't they be changed, especially if the player's have access to those stats?

Change is built into the system. The Monster Manuals, for example, as others have said, have "Advancement" guidelines right int he stat blocks, and monsters can also be given character classes.

 

[Victim]

Since we're using FR, I'd like to point out "canon" NPCs rapidly become invalid.

Additional supplements come out. Logically, official NPCs would have lots of extra spells and such that aren't listed. How many wizards statted up in the FRCS have spells from MaoF? If those are FR spells, then how come nobody has them? As more rules oriented supplements are released, the NPCs created first become more obselete. And then there are problems in that often the official stats for NPCs sometimes don't reflect abilities that they've previously shown. Using official stats can cause a greater continuity breach than changing them.

 

[Eternalknight]

To be fair, Anabstercorian, most of these "high and mighties" have asked Greymarch questions to which he has not responded. He has made provocotive, or what could be construed as provocotive, comments (the Turkish Prison Food, for example). This is a sign of trolling.

So, I am going to ask some questions now, and hopefully Greymarch will answer, just to fill us all in.

[color=sky blue]When we fight Drizzt, we want to fight the official Drizzt, not some 19 year old geek's version.

So, what happens if you kill Drizzt, as someone else asked? If he dies, is it still Forgotten Realms?

[color=sky blue]I consider the WOTC material to be far better than 99% percent of the OGL garbage floating around the internet, and being sold at hobby stores, and 99.9% better than any average D&D DM can create.[/color]

Ok, I agree that I find Wizards of the Coast stuff of a slightly higher quality, but have youplayed with any of the "OGL garbage"? If not, how can you say this?

[color=sky blue]If FR is fast food fantasy, then everything else is Turkish prison food.[/color]

Again, have you actualy played anything else?

To answer your original post, I suppose its up to your DM and the group. Since you and your group obviously think "no", you have already answered your own question.[/color]

 

[IceBear]

Re: Honestly, people, you're acting like children!

Hey, all of you people calling Greymarch a 'troll,' go back over the thread and read the way you've been responding to him. You've accused him of great deal, but from where I'm standing you're being extremely inhospitable! He expressed his opinion about his own playing style - So they like playing an official FR campaign! Give him a break! They have their own definition of what an official FR campaign is, and I'm sure that they know how to make it fun.
And regarding his Turkish Prison Food comment - That was in response to an open troll! He wasn't thinking about each of your individual campaign settings when he made that comment, he was just defending his preferred campaign setting with a witty zinger.

He has NOT been rude, he has NOT been especially confrontational, and you people are acting like gang-member-wanna-be's defending their turf. I expect more of most of you. You people are some of the high and mighties of the board and you're acting like total jerks.

Hmmmm - I guess I'm not reading the same thread. I don't see anyone being particularly rude to him (my last post was a little over the top maybe) but for the most part everyone answered his question about modifying NPC stats truthfully and then we asked why he wouldn't change them. When we got his answer I think we were all a little shocked and then explained that we wouldn't play that way, but if he was having fun then we don't begrudge him that. It was around that point, however, when he belittled us by saying that we were 'kewl kiddies' and 'hated WotC' just because we didn't believe the same as him. THAT was what we've been responding to. I don't care what game other people play as long as they're having fun, but I'd like to expect that others won't insult me for the type of game I play as well.

IceBear

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Now, wait a second, greymarch - you don't mean that if the DM creates a new NPC for the game that it somehow invalidates the whole game? If the DM can't even do that, you might as well play a Mario Brothers game.

By the way, no way could I be considered anti-WotC or a kid. I'm 36.

 

[Eternalknight]

Re: Honestly, people, you're acting like children!

Hey, all of you people calling Greymarch a 'troll,' go back over the thread and read the way you've been responding to him. You've accused him of great deal, but from where I'm standing you're being extremely inhospitable! He expressed his opinion about his own playing style - So they like playing an official FR campaign! Give him a break! They have their own definition of what an official FR campaign is, and I'm sure that they know how to make it fun.
And regarding his Turkish Prison Food comment - That was in response to an open troll! He wasn't thinking about each of your individual campaign settings when he made that comment, he was just defending his preferred campaign setting with a witty zinger.

He has NOT been rude, he has NOT been especially confrontational, and you people are acting like gang-member-wanna-be's defending their turf. I expect more of most of you. You people are some of the high and mighties of the board and you're acting like total jerks.

Not as bad as what I've seen over at the Wizards boards

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Honestly, people, you're acting like children!

Hey, all of you people calling Greymarch a 'troll,' go back over the thread and read the way you've been responding to him.

Well, I called him a troll. Not because he's been rude or confrontational but because he's refusing to discuss anything -- he won't continue discussions, he just states his opinion and then won't say why or how he came to it. To me, that's troll-like behaviour. If he doesn't want to be considered a troll by me he ought to try talking to me instead of just insisting he's right over and over without evidence or justification.

You've accused him of great deal, but from where I'm standing you're being extremely inhospitable! He expressed his opinion about his own playing style - So they like playing an official FR campaign! Give him a break! They have their own definition of what an official FR campaign is, and I'm sure that they know how to make it fun.

And as I have tried to make clear, I'm glad that he has fun playing his style. I won't pretend it isn't strange to me, because it is, but nowhere have I suggested that there's anything wrong with it.

And regarding his Turkish Prison Food comment - That was in response to an open troll! He wasn't thinking about each of your individual campaign settings when he made that comment, he was just defending his preferred campaign setting with a witty zinger.

Fine. Why can't he just say, "Witty zinger, not important, pay no attention"? Instead, when confronted with the notion that his comment might get him taken less seriously, he insists that his argument is just as valid, when it clearly isn't.

Again, if he doesn't want to be considered a troll, he ought to stop behaving like one. A simple rebuttal is all that's required.

He has NOT been rude, he has NOT been especially confrontational, and you people are acting like gang-member-wanna-be's defending their turf. I expect more of most of you. You people are some of the high and mighties of the board and you're acting like total jerks.

Well, nobody's called him a total jerk. I'm saying that he's wrong -- only in regards to the very specific point that his opinion on all homebrew campaigns is as valid as Mark Chance's on FR. He is wrong about that. Now if he wants to say he wasn't being serious, just flipping off at somebody, that's fine. Everyone does that. But he's not.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I don't know about the assertion of how mean or jerky everyone on this thread has been...I mean, I can think of maybe a half-dozen sites off the top of my head where this thread would be a love note.

 

[Buttercup]

Re: Honestly, people, you're acting like children!

Hey, all of you people calling Greymarch a 'troll,' go back over the thread and read the way you've been responding to him. You've accused him of great deal, but from where I'm standing you're being extremely inhospitable! He expressed his opinion about his own playing style - So they like playing an official FR campaign! Give him a break! They have their own definition of what an official FR campaign is, and I'm sure that they know how to make it fun.
And regarding his Turkish Prison Food comment - That was in response to an open troll! He wasn't thinking about each of your individual campaign settings when he made that comment, he was just defending his preferred campaign setting with a witty zinger.

He has NOT been rude, he has NOT been especially confrontational, and you people are acting like gang-member-wanna-be's defending their turf. I expect more of most of you. You people are some of the high and mighties of the board and you're acting like total jerks.

Hmm. I'd say he made some borderline inflamatory statements, and ignored several legitimate questions that were put to him. Then, when he didn't find a group of posters who agreed with his heterodox point of view, he stomped off in a huff. I'd also say that the behavior of most posters was entirely civil, albeit mystified.

 

[rounser]

Psion coined this thread real early in the piece: If you want to maintain player suspension of disbelief of an authentic FR, it should be reasonably consistent with the FR as they know it.

Of course, this is all an illusion. As someone else pointed out, you end up naming hamlets and creating villains and weaving plots just as you would in a homebrew. As for canon, it's interpreted differently by everyone who views it

So...I'd say, if you're trying to do "authentic" FR, change what you like, but with the caveat that if you're changing something that's very much taken for granted in the world (e.g. changing Cormyr into a flying island populated by sentient pink hippos), you risk casting a Dispel Suspension of Disbelief of Authentic Forgotten Realms on your players. Some would say "big deal, it's my Realms" and they'd be right, and others would say "oh no, my poor illusion of authentic FR is ruined!" and they'd also be right.

Now I'm going to get off this fence, it's hurting my backside...