Level Up (A5E) Should AD&D5E remove simple/martial weapon category as exotic weapons were removed from 5E?

[Undrave]

The psychologist George Miller came up with a "magic" number of 7 for how many chunks of information we can fit in short term memory. From my experience, having everything within a range of 3-7 items of information, choices, options, etc has worked well and I use it in a lot of my presentations, business cases and other kinds of communication.

I think it applies well here also. In 3.5 e we went from 20+ (although most minor) to 1. I think a few groups like an "object interaction" meaning to pick up something from the ground, getting something from a backpack, opening a door, etc works well as a chunk (I would probably have removing a weapon from a sheath exempt from this, as sheathes are designed for the purpose of quick and easy retreival).

So at the moment on the suggestions above, it looks like:

1. Moving within an opponent's range
2. Standing up from prone
3. Object Interaction
4. Using a ranged spell/attack

The AoOs themselves rarely came anywhere near that 7 bits of info because Alice didn't usually need to remember which of Bob's abilities provoked an AoO unless they were playing the same class & both had the same ability. Monster abilities pretty much came down to "did it move more than 5 feet, drink a potion/scroll, or cast a spell?... still not sure, ask the gm who will say yes or no if it has a (Sp) tag or not on the ability"

I'd like to point out that Polearm Mastery, Mage Slayer and Sentinel all add additional AoO triggers to specific characters. What if we just played it that way and added more of them? Including on monsters. Not ALL creatures could AoO on someone spell casting, but a few specialists can.

I think it makes it a more engaging mechanic and one that feels more active and that feed into more interesting build options.

 

[CubicsRube]

Here's an untested and incomplete weapons table, but it's an idea that I've had percolating in my head for a while regarding alternate attacks with weapons:

Martial Melee Weapons	Basic Attack	Damage		Special Attack	Attack Roll Modifier	Damage	Conditions
Battleaxe	Hack	1d8 slashing		Overhead chop	-5​	1d12 slashing	Crit on 19-20
Greataxe	Hack	1d12 slashing		Sweeping attack	-5​	1d12 slashing	Crit on 19-20, strikes two adjacent targets
War Pick	Hack	1d8 piercing		Precision strike	-2​	1d8 piercing	Crit on 18-20
Flail	Smash	1d8 bludgeoning		Entangle	-5​	1d4 bludgeoning	grapple check on target on hit
Morningstar	Smash	1d8 piercing		Stun	-2​	1d4 piercing	Target makes CON check vs STR or has disadvantage on next attack roll
Warhammer	Smash	1d8 bludgeoning		Drive back	-2​	1d6 bludgeoning	Str check to push target back
Maul	Smash	2d6 bludgeoning		Flatten	-5​	2d6 bludgeoning	Str check to knock target prone
Pike	Stab	1d10 piercing		Impale	-2​	2d6 piercing	-
Trident	Stab	1d6 piercing		Pin down	-2​	1	Target makes dex check or is restrained
Halberd	Slash	1d10 slashing		Keep away	-2​	1d6 piercing	+1 to AC until next round
Glaive	Stab	1d10 slashing		Leg sweep	-2​	1d6 slashing	STR vs target or they fall prone
Shortsword	Stab	1d6 piercing		Double slash	-2​	1	Attack twice when using the attack option
Longsword	Slash	1d8 slashing		Defensive strike	-2​	1d8 slashing	+1 to AC until next round
Rapier	Stab	1d8 piercing		Draw cut	-4​	1d10 slashing	-
Scimitar	Slash	1d6 slashing		Multi attack	-2​	1d3	Attack two adjacent targets with the same attack
Greatsword	Hack	2d6 slashing		Defensive strike	-2​	2d6 slashing	+1 to AC until next round
Whip	Crack	1d4 slashing		Entangle	-2​	Nil	Restrained on target

If a PC is proficiency in the weapon, they can use the special attack, otherwise they can only use the basic attack. Each weapon could potentially have a third attack, but I wouldn't go more than that. The idea is to provide a meaningful choice where both options might be useful in a given situation. I've applied a logic above that most special attacks give some sort of condition at the cost of a reduced attack roll, reduced damage, or both. Obviously a lot of testing would need to be done to ensure balance (this is where I have baulked), but the concept could be made workable IMO.

 

[Undrave]

Here's an untested and incomplete weapons table, but it's an idea that I've had percolating in my head for a while regarding alternate attacks with weapons:

Martial Melee Weapons	Basic Attack	Damage		Special Attack	Attack Roll Modifier	Damage	Conditions
Battleaxe	Hack	1d8 slashing		Overhead chop	-5​	1d12 slashing	Crit on 19-20
Greataxe	Hack	1d12 slashing		Sweeping attack	-5​	1d12 slashing	Crit on 19-20, strikes two adjacent targets
War Pick	Hack	1d8 piercing		Precision strike	-2​	1d8 piercing	Crit on 18-20
Flail	Smash	1d8 bludgeoning		Entangle	-5​	1d4 bludgeoning	grapple check on target on hit
Morningstar	Smash	1d8 piercing		Stun	-2​	1d4 piercing	Target makes CON check vs STR or has disadvantage on next attack roll
Warhammer	Smash	1d8 bludgeoning		Drive back	-2​	1d6 bludgeoning	Str check to push target back
Maul	Smash	2d6 bludgeoning		Flatten	-5​	2d6 bludgeoning	Str check to knock target prone
Pike	Stab	1d10 piercing		Impale	-2​	2d6 piercing	-
Trident	Stab	1d6 piercing		Pin down	-2​	1	Target makes dex check or is restrained
Halberd	Slash	1d10 slashing		Keep away	-2​	1d6 piercing	+1 to AC until next round
Glaive	Stab	1d10 slashing		Leg sweep	-2​	1d6 slashing	STR vs target or they fall prone
Shortsword	Stab	1d6 piercing		Double slash	-2​	1	Attack twice when using the attack option
Longsword	Slash	1d8 slashing		Defensive strike	-2​	1d8 slashing	+1 to AC until next round
Rapier	Stab	1d8 piercing		Draw cut	-4​	1d10 slashing	-
Scimitar	Slash	1d6 slashing		Multi attack	-2​	1d3	Attack two adjacent targets with the same attack
Greatsword	Hack	2d6 slashing		Defensive strike	-2​	2d6 slashing	+1 to AC until next round
Whip	Crack	1d4 slashing		Entangle	-2​	Nil	Restrained on target

If a PC is proficiency in the weapon, they can use the special attack, otherwise they can only use the basic attack. Each weapon could potentially have a third attack, but I wouldn't go more than that. The idea is to provide a meaningful choice where both options might be useful in a given situation. I've applied a logic above that most special attacks give some sort of condition at the cost of a reduced attack roll, reduced damage, or both. Obviously a lot of testing would need to be done to ensure balance (this is where I have baulked), but the concept could be made workable IMO.

Ooh that's a cool concept!

 

[CubicsRube]

It'd need a lot of work to get it right, Far above my game designing talent.

 

[cbwjm]

I think they should expand it to 4e weapons a bladesingee could have been proficient in simple weapons and then all heavy and light blades (irregardless of whether they are simple or martial).

 

[Jmarso]

Just because you never seen certain type of sword does not mean that you don't know how to use it.

at the end of a day, it's a steel bar that is sharpened and it is used to kill people.

bigger just means that you have more reach and can cut with more force.

Tell that to people who've spent years practicing foil, epee, saber, european longsword fighting, kendo, shinkendo, kenjutsu, and see what they say about it.

 

[Faolyn]

Tell that to people who've spent years practicing foil, epee, saber, european longsword fighting, kendo, shinkendo, kenjutsu, and see what they say about it.

I think the real question is, if I were trained in the foil and I picked up an epee, could I use it like I'd use a foil? Or are there such differences in the way the two swords are made that they would be useless or nearly useless to someone who wasn't trained in their individual use? (I seriously don't know; I never got to try out any swords.)

Personally, I wouldn't mind having small weapon categories (piercing swords versus slashing swords, for instance) rather than simple/martial.

 

[Ace]

I'm NOT suggesting this but you could just go all out narrative and have all damage class based only.

A wizard does 1d4/1d6 with 1d6 thrown or blast cantrip (used x times per day) rogue 1d6/1d8 warrior 1d6 ranged 1d8/1d10 1d8 ranged than your subclass would adjust what you use. A Fighter/Archer might get 1d10 ranged

There could even be a martial wizard subclass that say had less daily spells but more HP and weapon damage

You could also do this with armor say a mage +1for light (no penalties) this includes clothes +3 with heavy armor penalty to swim, climb, -10% movement

Mage Armor might just be "You light armor gains +2 AC" boom done

Attack and AC bonus could also increase by level as well.

 

[Jmarso]

My thought on proficiency groups:

Basic (Commoner/Anyone): Club, Dagger (Knives), Dart, Greatclub, Handaxe, Quarterstaff, Sickle, Scythe, Sling, Spear, Unarmed
Simple (Militia / Minimal Training): Basic + Crossbows, Javelin, Light Hammer, Mace, Morningstar, Shortbow.
Finesse (Primarily Rogues, Duelists, Dual Wielders): Simple + All non-exotic weapons with Light / Finesse Property
Martial I (Massed Infantry): Simple, Shortsword, All polearms or Longbow, all non-exotic melee weapons without the finesse property.
Martial II (Mounted Men-at-arms, officers, knights): Simple + Lance, all non-exotic one-handed (or versatile) melee weapons.
Exotic (Special, by class or feat): Bastard Sword, Dire Flail, Kama, Kukri, Mancatcher, Net, Nunchaku, Shuriken, Siangham, Two-bladed swords, whips, etc.

Note that some proficiency groups above include lesser ones within their own scope. I.E.: Martial I includes Simple, which in itself includes Basic. Which means that a Martial I proficiency also includes proficiency in Basic and Simple.

Minimum STR requirement for wielding any heavy / 2-handed melee weapon: 14
Minimum STR requirement for Martial I/II proficiency group: 12
Minimum DEX requirement for Finesse proficiency group: 12
Racial weapon proficiencies still apply, as long as a character meets the above minimum requirements. Note that this imposes a strength requirement of 12 to proficiently wield the longbow, regardless of race or class.

Starting proficiencies:

Barbarian: Simple, all non-exotic axes and swords, and bludgeoning weapons. Longbow or 1 exotic weapon.
Bards: Finesse
Cleric (Non war-domain): Simple, any deity specific weapons proficiencies.
Cleric (War-domain): Simple, Martial II, Any deity specific weapons proficiencies.
Druid: Basic, Maces, Scimitar
Fighter: Martial I or Martial II. Longbow or 1 exotic weapon.
Monk: Basic, 1 exotic ranged weapon, Shortsword or 1 exotic melee weapon.
Paladin: Martial II, 1 two-handed melee weapon, or 1 exotic weapon.
Ranger: Finesse, all non-exotic axes, swords, and bludgeoning weapons. Longbow or 1 exotic weapon.
Rogue: Finesse, and may trade one skill proficiency for Longbow or 1 exotic weapon.
Sorcerer: All Basic without the heavy or two-handed property.
Warlock: All Basic without the heavy or two-handed property.
Wizard: All Basic without the heavy or two-handed property.

 

[Faolyn]

I dunno. I've heard that slings are actually pretty hard to use, and from what I've seen (from videos) scythes require a bit of skill to use. At least to mow grass. I imagine that a PC who uses a scythe is kind of using it like a weirdly-shaped axe.