Level Up (A5E) Should AD&D5E remove simple/martial weapon category as exotic weapons were removed from 5E?

[tetrasodium]

I think this is key.

Originally, the simple/martial light/medium/heavy concepts were to make sure Warrior classes were better at combat than Priest and Rogue classes without the need to frontload them to heck.

Removing simple/martial means you have to add something to warriors that don't make them extremely tasty in multi/dual/sub/split classsing.

Indeed. People saying that it's a vestigial & pointless distinction in 5e so should be removed in Advanced 5e are looking at it the wrong way. The solution is to put what made the two different back in. 5e stripped out all of the reasons that martial weapons were actually better than simple ones sure a d10 is technically better than a d8, but it was things like the crit mod, crit range, & access to multiple damage types that stayed relevant without huge sacrifices like a d4 damage with a good crit range or crit mod but low damage die & poor crit range & such. Correcting this short soghted act of stupidity should be easy even if they wind up using different methods than were shown to work in the past.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think this is key.

Originally, the simple/martial light/medium/heavy concepts were to make sure Warrior classes were better at combat than Priest and Rogue classes without the need to frontload them to heck.

Removing simple/martial means you have to add something to warriors that don't make them extremely tasty in multi/dual/sub/split classsing.

Huh? I mean I agree with the second sentence.

And were we still to be talking about the D&D of yesteryear in the third, I would have agreed with that one too.

Yes, back then you would have had to add something to warriors. But D&D has already done that by now. Making martial/simple non-crucial. That's the OP's entire point.

 

[CapnZapp]

Indeed. People saying that it's a vestigial & pointless distinction in 5e so should be removed in Advanced 5e are looking at it the wrong way. The solution is to put what made the two different back in.

screeching halt

Heh.

On the other hand, let's nip the natural follow-up idea in the bud, the "if we keep it let us at least make it more significant". No, that does not necessarily follow. It is entirely okay for Level Up to keep a 5E rule that isn't too much of a bother, even if the only reason is because it was in 5E.

 

[Minigiant]

Huh? I mean I agree with the second sentence.

And were we still to be talking about the D&D of yesteryear in the third, I would have agreed with that one too.

Yes, back then you would have had to add something to warriors. But D&D has already done that by now. Making martial/simple non-crucial. That's the OP's entire point.

Depends on how it's implemented.
There are suggestions to remove simple/martial, light/medium/heavy armors, ability bonuses for race, class spell lists etc.

All these things add up.
Then poof CoDzilla.

 

[Horwath]

Depends on how it's implemented.
There are suggestions to remove simple/martial, light/medium/heavy armors, ability bonuses for race, class spell lists etc.

All these things add up.
Then poof CoDzilla.

Well, my ideal solution to weapons/armor would be that there are no weapon/armor proficiency categories but that all weapons/armor have minimum Strength requirement and more strength you are missing, more penalties you have.
Also, for melee weapons(and thrown) you can use str or dex if you have required strength.
ranged is dex based as normal.

for weapons: if you do not have sufficient strength, you have disadvantage to attack and deal minimum damage. and cannot use dex for melee weapons.

for armor: for every str mod that you are missing, you have -1 to attack, -1 for spell DCs, -1 to str and dex checks and saves and -5ft speed penalty.

 

[Minigiant]

Well, my ideal solution to weapons/armor would be that there are no weapon/armor proficiency categories but that all weapons/armor have minimum Strength requirement and more strength you are missing, more penalties you have.
Also, for melee weapons(and thrown) you can use str or dex if you have required strength.
ranged is dex based as normal.

for weapons: if you do not have sufficient strength, you have disadvantage to attack and deal minimum damage. and cannot use dex for melee weapons.

for armor: for every str mod that you are missing, you have -1 to attack, -1 for spell DCs, -1 to str and dex checks and saves and -5ft speed penalty.

I find ability restrictions too easy to bypass in a system that allow rolled ability, race choice, and magic items.

The hard gate of proficiency at least made the passing the restriction a choice and not on based on luck. It was a short gate but it was there.

Like I said, the more flexibility Level Up has, the easier for things to break.

 

[Horwath]

I find ability restrictions too easy to bypass in a system that allow rolled ability, race choice, and magic items.

The hard gate of proficiency at least made the passing the restriction a choice and not on based on luck. It was a short gate but it was there.

Like I said, the more flexibility Level Up has, the easier for things to break.

1. Don't roll for abilities if you do not want unbalanced characters.

2. A strong race can have heavier weapons and armor? To me, working as intended.

3. DM controls the flow of magic items, and can ban some of them if they break some version of house rules or official rules.

this variant returns strength to balanced state with dexterity.

 

[tetrasodium]

I find ability restrictions too easy to bypass in a system that allow rolled ability, race choice, and magic items.

The hard gate of proficiency at least made the passing the restriction a choice and not on based on luck. It was a short gate but it was there.

Like I said, the more flexibility Level Up has, the easier for things to break.

linking that CoDzilla level of casting to a 2h focus item that has squishy/glassy properties baked in helps avoid that. CoDzilla being able to use their full spell list while sword(mace) & board without being affected by ASF all combined was a big factor in CoDzilla type silliness.

1. Don't roll for abilities if you do not want unbalanced characters.

2. A strong race can have heavier weapons and armor? To me, working as intended.

3. DM controls the flow of magic items, and can ban some of them if they break some version of house rules or official rules.

this variant returns strength to balanced state with dexterity.

Bob Wizard: Wow +6 strength gauntlets, those will be great for you Alice
Alice Barbarian: That would be +1 over my +4 ones now, it would be really nice if I got those & someone else could have my +4 set
Chuck Cleric: Actually the +4 would let me do X & unlock $CoDzilla like I built for

 

[CapnZapp]

Depends on how it's implemented.
There are suggestions to remove simple/martial, light/medium/heavy armors, ability bonuses for race, class spell lists etc.

All these things add up.
Then poof CoDzilla.

I haven't actually advocated for the deletion of simple/martial.

I did express understanding for the OP's suggestion, though. I agree simple/martial doesn't do much anymore, but then again, I also think not much would be won by removing it (for Level Up).

 

[Minigiant]

1. Don't roll for abilities if you do not want unbalanced characters.

2. A strong race can have heavier weapons and armor? To me, working as intended.

3. DM controls the flow of magic items, and can ban some of them if they break some version of house rules or official rules.

this variant returns strength to balanced state with dexterity.

I think if one of the base ability generation option breaks a potential rule, it can't be a default one. It can only be optional.

Especially if Level Up adds ability bonuses to more things like background.

I haven't actually advocated for the deletion of simple/martial.

I did express understanding for the OP's suggestion, though. I agree simple/martial doesn't do much anymore, but then again, I also think not much would be won by removing it (for Level Up).

I'm just saying I am seeing suggestions for (1) removing restrictions and (2) adding more levels of complexity

Doing 1 and 2 too much can be disastrous. What is added or taken away has to justify itself for inclusion in base rules.