D&D 5E Should D&D 5e have Epic Levels?

[doctorbadwolf]

Definitely not. In fact, dnd should only have 10 levels. That's where it works best and is most fun.

Disagree.

Even if “most“ games that end around level ten, there isn’t a steep drop-off until about 12, IIRC, and enough folks play past that that it would be ridiculous to not have the full 20 levels.

 

[Teemu]

Absolutely not. Levels 17-20 are already a mess and a half. Adding even more levels on top of that? No. You really think the gameplay is improved by making everyone even more of a hit point sponge? Even more spells to track? The game barely functions in the final tier as is.

The main audience for epic levels would be the reading audience. The same folks who salivate over level 20 abilities and 9th-level spells but hardly ever play the game at those levels.

If Wish is already the most powerful spell in existence, how do you top that? Also, the non-spellcasting classes would look even worse in comparison if you added even more powerful spells. The rogue gets +1d6 sneak attack while the wizard learns ”Greater Wish”? Lol.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Absolutely not. Levels 17-20 are already a mess and a half. Adding even more levels on top of that? No. You really think the gameplay is improved by making everyone even more of a hit point sponge? Even more spells to track? The game barely functions in the final tier as is.

The main audience for epic levels would be the reading audience. The same folks who salivate over level 20 abilities and 9th-level spells but hardly ever play the game at those levels.

If Wish is already the most powerful spell in existence, how do you top that? Also, the non-spellcasting classes would look even worse in comparison if you added even more powerful spells. The rogue gets +1d6 sneak attack while the wizard learns ”Greater Wish”? Lol.

Well, no. Just like the rogue got “cannot fail on anything but the hardest tasks with proficient skills” at level 11, they would get things like; the ability to steal a voice, at-will invisibility, Darkvision or +60 ft to existing Darkvision and it functions in magical darkness, the ability to move their speed when they succeed on a Dex or strength saving throw without opportunity attacks, upgrade sneak attack to d10s, kill any creature that is reduced to 30 HP or fewer by their attack, Pack Tactics, etc.


And the game literally functions fine at high levels.

 

[Mercurius]

I think the reason that epic play hasn't been well supported in D&D is less because it doesn't work, and more because people don't know what to do with it. And, of course, there's the simple logistical fact of numbers: There are more low level campaigns because the vast majority of campaigns start at low levels, and most campaigns eventually peter out.

So here's a thought, to follow-up on my previous post: make epic play truly epic, exploring new venues of play. Don't just make it bigger and badder; make it mythic and cosmic. Expand the notion of what D&D to incorporate cosmological elements.

A so-called epic book could really be about this "new" kind of play. A big 320-page book could be in three parts:

1. Epic characters - levels 21 and up.
2. Epic campaigns - a toolbox on how to run an epic campaign.
3. Epic monsters - deities, demigods, and more.

The book could encourage cosmological-customization, and even eventually offer new worlds to explore. An example might be:

The world is ruled by a pantheon of deities in a tiered hierarchy, what we could call "Celestials" that are worshipped in different cultures by different names, but essentially an ascended order of immortal beings that governs the known cosmos. They "wait" for heroes to emerge to join the ranks, becoming part of the Celestial Hierarchy that abides over and guides not only the worlds, but a family of worlds under their guidance. The worlds are seen by them as "cradles of the gods" - their task to facilitate the evolution of individuals towards Ascension (attaining immortality).

In this system, when a character reaches 20th level they become a candidate for Ascension. Epic rules continue for four or five more levels, when they have to prove their worth. Upon attaining 25th level they can Ascend and become a Celestial Paragon: akin to a quasi-deity. Every five (or ten) levels brings them up a rank in the Celestial Hierarchy, like so:

25: Celestial Paragon (quasi-deity)
30: Celestial Paragon (lesser demigod)
35: Celestial Paragon (greater demigod)

This first triad would be more traditional epic play, but expanded into greater quests, both within and beyond the world. Celestial Paragons guide and influence nations, perhaps under the governance of a deity.

40: Celestial Deity (Lesser god)
60: Celestial Deity (Intermediate god)
80: Celestial Deity (Greater god)

The second triad are true gods of the world: they guide through influence, leaving active work to the Celestial Paragons, but caretaking the world and its peoples.

100: Star Celestial (Demiurge; World-Maker)
500: Galactic Celestial (Galaxy-Maker)
1000: Universal Celestial (Cosmos-Maker)

The third triad have influence beyond the world. Each Star Celestial/Demiurge is the creator god of a world; upon attaining that level, the deity is given the task of creating a world and its system; they are the star or sun, the center of system, and game play would expand to billions of years. The Galactic Celestials govern the Star Celestials, and the Universal Celestial is the supreme being of an entire cosmos.

Or something like that. Obviously the vast majority of players would enver play beyond the Celestial Paragon triad, but such a framework is just one example (written ad hoc, so forgive the roughness of it) that could provide for different types of game play.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I voted no. I think 5e already has excellent Epic rules right in the DMG on page 230-232.

After reaching 20th level, for every 30,000 xp you gain you may choose one of the following:
-Ability Score Increase (and the caps for your abilities raised this way increase to 30)
-Feat
-Epic Boon

This allows you to acquire awesome power (including cool special abilities) without needing to mess with classes. It also prevents your hp and proficiency bonus from having an endless advancement.

One of the big problems with epic levels as a separate rule system as in 3e is that it doesn't make sense for monsters. 3e had to make new epic monsters, because the previous ones that should have been at the top of the totem pole (like the Tarrasque) couldn't keep up. You'll have the exact same problem in 5e if you have actual epic levels added.

 

[Xenonnonex]

I think the reason that epic play hasn't been well supported in D&D is less because it doesn't work, and more because people don't know what to do with it. And, of course, there's the simple logistical fact of numbers: There are more low level campaigns because the vast majority of campaigns start at low levels, and most campaigns eventually peter out.

So here's a thought, to follow-up on my previous post: make epic play truly epic, exploring new venues of play. Don't just make it bigger and badder; make it mythic and cosmic. Expand the notion of what D&D to incorporate cosmological elements.

A so-called epic book could really be about this "new" kind of play. A big 320-page book could be in three parts:

1. Epic characters - levels 21 and up.
2. Epic campaigns - a toolbox on how to run an epic campaign.
3. Epic monsters - deities, demigods, and more.

The book could encourage cosmological-customization, and even eventually offer new worlds to explore. An example might be:

The world is ruled by a pantheon of deities in a tiered hierarchy, what we could call "Celestials" that are worshipped in different cultures by different names, but essentially an ascended order of immortal beings that governs the known cosmos. They "wait" for heroes to emerge to join the ranks, becoming part of the Celestial Hierarchy that abides over and guides not only the worlds, but a family of worlds under their guidance. The worlds are seen by them as "cradles of the gods" - their task to facilitate the evolution of individuals towards Ascension (attaining immortality).

In this system, when a character reaches 20th level they become a candidate for Ascension. Epic rules continue for four or five more levels, when they have to prove their worth. Upon attaining 25th level they can Ascend and become a Celestial Paragon: akin to a quasi-deity. Every five (or ten) levels brings them up a rank in the Celestial Hierarchy, like so:

25: Celestial Paragon (quasi-deity)
30: Celestial Paragon (lesser demigod)
35: Celestial Paragon (greater demigod)

This first triad would be more traditional epic play, but expanded into greater quests, both within and beyond the world. Celestial Paragons guide and influence nations, perhaps under the governance of a deity.

40: Celestial Deity (Lesser god)
60: Celestial Deity (Intermediate god)
80: Celestial Deity (Greater god)

The second triad are true gods of the world: they guide through influence, leaving active work to the Celestial Paragons, but caretaking the world and its peoples.

100: Star Celestial (Demiurge; World-Maker)
500: Galactic Celestial (Galaxy-Maker)
1000: Universal Celestial (Cosmos-Maker)

The third triad have influence beyond the world. Each Star Celestial/Demiurge is the creator god of a world; upon attaining that level, the deity is given the task of creating a world and its system; they are the star or sun, the center of system, and game play would expand to billions of years. The Galactic Celestials govern the Star Celestials, and the Universal Celestial is the supreme being of an entire cosmos.

Or something like that. Obviously the vast majority of players would enver play beyond the Celestial Paragon triad, but such a framework is just one example (written ad hoc, so forgive the roughness of it) that could provide for different types of game play.

You can do that in a lot less numbers. 5e already gives you tools for it.
Numbers porn is not what 5e is about.

 

[dave2008]

Absolutely not. Levels 17-20 are already a mess and a half.

Are you talking about 5e? It works fine at high level IMO

 

[Mercurius]

You can do that in a lot less numbers. 5e already gives you tools for it.
Numbers porn is not what 5e is about.

I love it when you tell me what 5E is about.

 

[Xenonnonex]

I love it when you tell me what 5E is about.

Okay. Great.

 

[Teemu]

And the game literally functions fine at high levels.

Are you talking about 5e? It works fine at high level IMO

It works, but it's also a mess. CR? A huge gamble. How do you challenge players? It's so swingy and hit-and-miss. Huge hp pools, low ACs. Everyone hitting all the time since hp are the main defensive attribute. Oh, and non-proficient saves against action-denial effects... 0%-5% chance of success.

Go epic and save DCs go even higher, which means your non-proficient saves auto-fail. Attacks hit 95% of the time. Are spellcasters going to be pulling off three 9th-level spells per day? How many 8th-level spells? How do you use CR 10ish creatures as mooks when they have enormous hp pools for "minions" and may possess innate spellcasting or other complex mechanics.

It'd be a bookkeeping nightmare.