Should D&D Have an Alternate Death Mechanic?

[shilsen]

I have read them and don't agree with them (especially the "not as penalizing as it is" sentence. There is nearly no penalty to dieing in D&D compared to other rpgs). Take any other fantasy RPG. It most likely also save or die effects but D&D is probably the rpg where dieing has the least consequences. In other rpgs death means that you character is gone permanently. In D&D its just a small level and money loss (yes, like in a video game).

Permanent death is just part of the immersion. When you screw up you are dead. Game over.

Not exactly. When you screw up, your imaginary character is dead, and then you start playing another imaginary character. I'm not certain how that connects to immersion. It may for you, but it doesn't for me.

And if your game is too lethal it is most likely not the fault of the game, its either the fault of the DM who can't make balanced encouters or the fault of the players who can't play their characters effectivly.

So if someone's game is lethal then they are automatically playing D&D wrong? Firelance, I got your wrongbadfun post right here

Is that so? I doubt that.

Really? Why would you think I'd lie about my game to persuade a random stranger on an internet messageboard that I'm right? I don't need that kind of validation

Of course it is unlikely that this happens on the dragon scale (unless the players want show through their actions that they think that this rule is stupid). Hasn't it happened in all the years of gaming that your group surprises a cult of generic evil worshippers who haven't noticed them (or somethink like that) and simply charged, always knowing that action points and alternate death rules will keep them alive?

Nope. As mentioned above, even if you think the other repercussions I and others have mentioned don't matter, to some people they do. Our players know that their PCs are likely to survive (after all, even though very unlikely, death still happens), but know that much worse things than death are possible.

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D is probably the rpg where dieing has the least consequences. In other rpgs death means that you character is gone permanently. In D&D its just a small level and money loss (yes, like in a video game).
Permanent death is just part of the immersion. When you screw up you are dead. Game over.

You're right that D&D is different from other games in this respect. High death rate, but easy to return from death. The majority of other games make it harder to die, for example with fate points in WHFRP, but hard or impossible to come back from death.

It's in a sense correct to call this trait of D&D 'video gamey' as most video games have the same high death rate/easy return. 'Comic booky' would also be appropriate as the superhero genre is notorious for its 'revolving door of death'. Of course, D&D has always contained the raise dead spells so it has always been video gamey.

I actually like this aspect of the game as it makes the game universe weirder, more distinct from our own reality. To me weird=good. And I like it in comic books too, but then superhero universes are, if anything, even madder than D&D worlds.

 

[Derren]

So if someone's game is lethal then they are automatically playing D&D wrong? Firelance, I got your wrongbadfun post right here

Its imo a better explanation than "If someones game is lethal than the game is wrong"

Nope. As mentioned above, even if you think the other repercussions I and others have mentioned don't matter, to some people they do. Our players know that their PCs are likely to survive (after all, even though very unlikely, death still happens), but know that much worse things than death are possible.

And what would that be? Money loss? XP/Level loss? Its hard to take a geme serious then the players are more concerned about wealth and XP than the survival of their characters.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Not exactly. When you screw up, your imaginary character is dead, and then you start playing another imaginary character. I'm not certain how that connects to immersion. It may for you, but it doesn't for me.

For maximum immersion, when a PC dies, the player should die too.

D&D as it should be played.

 

[Quasqueton]

Of course, D&D has always contained the raise dead spells so it has always been video gamey.

Even before there were video games. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, video games are too D&Dey.

Quasqueton

 

[RFisher]

One of my pet peeves with the current version of D&D is how fatal it can be. So many save or die options out there and potential triple-damage-digit attacks that fatalities are almost impossible to avoid.

The answer to "save or die" is not to get rid of it, IMHO. The answer is to ensure that the players generally have a reasonable opportunity to realize that a certain action means risking death. The saving throw should be a second-chance to escape the fatal fate the PC deserves.

Sometimes this means that the PCs have to think & plan a little harder to get past an obstacle, but that's where the fun is, right?

The answer to the triple-damage potential is to either dump criticals 100% or make them a PC only feature. Yeah, I could apply the same rationale as above to them, but my experience has always been that critical hits have always--in net--been less fun rather than more. They're stacked against the PCs, & combat doesn't need any more randomness anyway.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Well, if you don't like those spells....take them out of your game.

Why? I didn't say I don't like the spells, I said I don't like the downer effect it has on the campaign. Taking out all the save or die spells would be silly.

Better to just come up with a better "death" mechanic. And some of the above posts have given me some good ideas how to do that.

 

[shilsen]

Its imo a better explanation than "If someones game is lethal than the game is wrong"

Why does anything need to be wrong? If someone's game is lethal it can just mean that ... well, that person's game is lethal. As long as they're cool with it, there's nothing wrong. And if they don't want it to be that lethal, then presumably they deal with it in some way, as Ogrork is doing here.

And what would that be? Money loss? XP/Level loss? Its hard to take a geme serious then the players are more concerned about wealth and XP than the survival of their characters.

To quote myself from earlier in the thread - "PCs are constantly being challenged during combat. If taken down, PCs have been kidnapped, lost valuable equipment, prevented from achieving some important objective, failed to prevent the BBEG from some objective, lost valued friends and allies, been magically mutated, etc. They constantly face the risk of defeat, without death being a common one thereof."

And I'm only listing a few among a myriad possibilities here.

 

[SteveC]

I have read them and don't agree with them (especially the "not as penalizing as it is" sentence. There is nearly no penalty to dieing in D&D compared to other rpgs). Take any other fantasy RPG. It most likely also save or die effects but D&D is probably the rpg where dieing has the least consequences. In other rpgs death means that you character is gone permanently. In D&D its just a small level and money loss (yes, like in a video game).
Permanent death is just part of the immersion. When you screw up you are dead. Game over.

If I may ask: what other RPGs are you using to base this statement on? It has been my experience that D&D is one of the most deadly games out there. Take Warhammer Fantasy, as another example. It's grim, gritty and deadly, but characters have Fate points, which are literally "get out of death" points.

I would seriously like to know what your frame of reference is on this matter.

--Steve

 

[JDJblatherings]

Save or Die being replaced by Save or Dying isn't a bad idea at all. It lends drama to the game, there is something for the party to do, a player with a PC slowly dying makes sure everyone pays attention at the table (even if in characetr they can't do much). PC's that fall to a death save shoudlnt' be able to stabilize on their own it should require another character to save their butt.

as for folks beign killed at -10 hp ... too bad, death has to happen at some point. Maybe be a softie and have it be -(CON + level) but there should still a point where dead is dead.