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Should D&D (or any other RPG) actually attempt to be "All Things to All People"?

Indeed. I am by no means a fan of 3.5E at this point in time, but if I was I wouldn't want to play a 3.5E without the Warlock, Tome of Battle, PHB2, or Expanded Psionics Handbook. While Pathfinder is providing new material going forward, it isn't supporting the things above and is incompatible enough to make mixing Pathfinder and the old stuff I won't play 3.5E without a hassle, prompting me to ignore Pathfinder and stick with good old 3.5E.
 

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A lot of these threads have gotten me thinking...and perhaps this isn't an original thought but....I honestly think the primary reason 4E has gotten the reputation of being "not for roleplaying" is that many, and in fact the launch adventure (Keep on the Shadowfell) are all combat heavy, linear slogs. Their adventure format even kind of encourages this (although when you do have an encounter, I actually really like their layout and even tactical advice on how to play the mobs). If 4E had launched with something more akin to the Paizo style adventure path or module (ie something more fiction heavy, investigative, explorative) I honestly believe we would be seeing much less of these type of complaints. If someone's first and only exposure to 4e is an adventure like most of the published WoTC ones, I can totally understand that.

/snip

Now, this, this I have a hard time disagreeing with. One of the big strengths of D&D has always been its modules. It makes even a really rules heavy game easy to play. Skim the rules, plop down a module and away we go.

The WOTC modules have been ummm.... less than stellar? All right, outright crap for the most part. And it really, really has hurt the game probably more than anything else I can think of.

Particularly since it can't rely on setting fans propping things up with buying the latest setting supplement for whatever setting they happen to like. The three and out method of setting presentation, coupled with really lackluster adventures has not done any favours do 4ed.
 

The WOTC modules have been ummm.... less than stellar? All right, outright crap for the most part. And it really, really has hurt the game probably more than anything else I can think of. .

This has been an issue since WOTC bought TSR in 1996/7-ish. Those late 2E modules were awful, as were the vast majority of 3.X module and super adventures, and the 4E ones are simply following the trend.
 

This has been an issue since WOTC bought TSR in 1996/7-ish. Those late 2E modules were awful, as were the vast majority of 3.X module and super adventures, and the 4E ones are simply following the trend.

Not only that, I'm doubtful that an adventure path, even well done, is the best way to show the Indy side of 4E, which is really one of its stronger points. Its really the same thing as with people who took 1E to be nothing but what the tournament modules made it seem.

And even with 2E or 3E, which I think are really the best systems for an AP, the AP modules give a very wrong impression for someone wanting to run either system as sandbox, or partial sandbox/challenge dungeon. People kept doing it, because the tradition was still strong from 1E. This is really the same thing as what Pemerton is talking about with BW. You need a wider experience to get the best out of 4E.

But then I'm not all that big on modules, for those reasons and others. It seems they tend to pigeon-hole a game into what the module suggests on the surface, rather than serve as a starting place for what the module might represent in the hands of the person that wrote it.
 

I think that's true for any system, not just GURPS, unless you rewrite huge portions of it - which would seem like a waste of time in many cases. If you really want an extremely abstract system with player-defined abilities, rewriting D&D to provide it suggests an odd sense of priorities. It would seem better to use an existing system and spend time creating/adapting the setting material. That's what people interact with... the system defines how those interactions function.

Sorry, didn't realize it wasn't apparent, but that quote about GURPS was meant with GURPS as stand-in for any game. GURPS was merely used because it claims "universal" right there in the name. But yeah, you can do anything you want with D&D (any edition)--as long as you don't mind it playing like D&D (of that edition).

And I agree that rewriting D&D--or any system usually--to try to buck this tendency, is usually a waste of time. If you want a D&D-ish version of a sci/fi game, then picking one of the more coherent rulesets as a generic base and altering the game to fit a different genre--isn't a bad plan. If you want it to play more like GURPS, it is a terrible plan. One of the reasons d20 Star Wars sort of works (and Saga did even better) was that fantasy element in Star Wars that a true sci/fi game struggles with.
 

The reason I feel BRP is so resistant to drifting is that it hasn't got the character build aspects you identify in Champions, nor the action resolution features my group discovered in Rolemaster. In that sense, it's very tightly designed!

Yes, it is--in all versions, near as I can tell. That's because the designers really knew exactly what they wanted to do. Oh, they've had flaws in various subsystems--but these were usually because those subsystems were early or rushed versions, probably with limited playtesting.

I think the only time they introduced mechanics that fought with the design was RQ 3, which was Avalon Hill, not them. And even then, the core design was so strong that it still shone through. Then Mongoose does their variant, changes some things deliberately to make it a little smoother handling and slightly more geared towards epic than grit--and still manages to retain that essential spirit.

You can drift it a little, within the exploration mindset, but not far!
 

I honestly think the primary reason 4E has gotten the reputation of being "not for roleplaying" is that many, and in fact the launch adventure (Keep on the Shadowfell) are all combat heavy, linear slogs.
I think this is right.

If you read through the PHB and DMG for 4e, the talk is all of a game where history and mythology run deep, and still matter to the present day. The talk is of player-initiated quests, and of skill challenge resolution which is highly responsive to player ingenuity and the players driving the game forward.

And even the advice for tactical encounters talks about movement, circular paths, improvisation using page 42, etc.

But the modules, or at least many of the ones I know (Heathen, from Dungeon, and P2 with the drow perhaps being two exceptions) don't reflect this at all. As they are presented, history and mythology provide at best a supeficial patina of flavour. The situations presented are very static, and have little room for player input or incorporation of player-driven quests. Many of the encounters, as written, are boring even at the tactical level, let alone the thematic level. And the skill challenges seem poorly conceived - presented more in the manner of a script, than of a situation which the GM will adjudicate flexibly in response to the input of the players.

For a while now I've been wondering why WotC seem unable to produce good modules. And linking this back to the thread topic, it may be an "all things to all people" issue.

To try and explain that: I think that 4e is not especially suited to a classic D&D "Caves of Chaos"-style setup. Unlike B2, it is focused less on exploration, and more on engaging the situation. And the WotC authors seem to recognise this - so they are not writing exploration-focused modules. But what they have produced as the alternative are situation-based modules which read as if all the play has already happened - all the events, the relationships, the theme, the drama, has already been prepackaged. All that's left for the purchaser at the table to do is to roll the dice to work out exactly how costly the combats will be, in time and healing surges.

I don't think the solution is to try and go back to the classic module style. I think ideas for how to present situation-focused modules that are more flexible and open to player input - that read like a starting point for play rather than an output of play - can be found in the sample adventures for HeroWars (I'm thinking of the original Narrator's Guide) and Burning Wheel (I'm thinking of the Adventure Builder). The focus would be more on setting up a scenario in terms of the relatioships within it, ideas for how to use those relationships to engage and put pressure on the players via their PCs, then leading that into a range of suggested framings for skill challenges and/or combat encounters.

Of WotC modules that I know, The Speaker in Dreams goes some way towards trying this. And of the 4e modules, P2 has a stab at it, although somewhat bizarrely the skill challenge guidance is summarised over a couple of pages, while the combat stats for the same situations are given two pages each. It would have been better, in my view, if the authors had had the courage of their convictions and subordinated the combat info while putting more effort into setting up the relationships between the NPCs and the skill challenges they might support.
 

Now here's a question to anyone who might know:

How about the Encounters adventures? I know they're really really short. Like 1 session long right? So, we're talking maybe three, four scenarios at most. Are they fun?

I've never seen one, so, maybe that's where a lot of the focus is going instead of on modules? Could be, since it seems that Encounters is where a lot of WOTC's resources seem to be.
 


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