Should I Ban Tanglefoot Bags?

[molonel]

The stuff is only effective for 2d4 rounds.

With all due respect, in D&D combat, that might as well be an eternity.

 

[green slime]

With all due respect, in D&D combat, that might as well be an eternity.

Yep. The affected PC may as well slash his own wrists and be done with it.

 

[Jhulae]

I removed them from my game because they're as effective as a 4th level spell (enervation) for too low a cost.

I'm still waiting to see how you've handled Entangle, because if TFBs are the equivalent of Enervation, is Entangle the equivalent of some 8th or 9th level spell in your book?

 

[Jhulae]

Yep. The affected PC may as well slash his own wrists and be done with it.

Okay, so if one PC become entangled for 2d4 rounds, and he "might as well slash his own wrists", how do all of you handle Entangle, which is a 1st level spell that affects a 40' radius and has a higher avoidance and escape DC, as well as lasting 1 minute a level, meaning at the *least* 10 rounds?

If 2d4 rounds is so awful for a single character, what is a harder to avoid 10 round minimum for multiple characters?

 

[Eloi]

Tanglefoot bags are exceedingly useful to sneaky folks who are primarily concerned about what happens should they be discovered. Getting that head start which might allow them to get back to the group.. yes, worth expending a Bag for that. (Even if they do show up with a trail of angry folks pounding along right behind them..)

The other high-value use for a Bag is to glom a Charmed friend to the ground so the hostile spellcaster can be eradicated.. and then hopefully your friend will regain his senses. In the hands of a non-caster, this is a great option - sure beats having to whack the Cleric unconscious.

Those two really good uses for a Tanglefoot Bag generally mean they get conserved for those critical uses. And they're not exactly cheap. When you're trying to save 2000 gold for a +1 sword, you wince a little about cavalierly using up a half-dozen Bags.

 

[Sejs]

I know. Compare the numbers that result from the two effects.
-blarg

OKay.

Tanglefoot Bag
-2 to hit
-4 penalty to Dex, resulting in:
... -2 to AC
... -2 to ref saves
... -2 to Dex-related skill checks
... -2 to hit with missle weapons (net penalty of -4)
Possible inability to move from their current space, pending a DC 15 ref save.
Reduced to half movemet speed if not stuck in place.
Forces a DC 15 concentration check on spellcasting if bound.
Wears off after 2d4 rounds, can be removed with a DC 17 str check or via 15 pts of slashing dmg.
Protected against by means of Freedom of Movement, a 4th level spell.

Enervation
Causes 1d4 negative levels, resulting in a loss of:
-1 to -4 to hit
-1 to -4 on all skill checks
-1 to -4 on all ability checks
-5 to -20 hit points
-1 to -4 to the character's effective level for level-dependent variables, such as caster level for spells or wild shape duration
Loss of 1 to 4 of the character's highest level spells that they have currently available
Slain outright if negative levels equal or exceed subject's HD
Persists for 1 hour per caster level, max of 15 hours.
No normal way to avoid or mitigate the effects, other than not being hit. No save.
Protected against by means of Death Ward, a 4th level spell.



For point of interest, here's Entangle:

Entangle
Requires sufficient plant cover. Assuming such is available, applies the following to all targets within its 40' radius area:
-2 to hit
-4 penalty to Dex, resulting in:
... -2 to AC
... -2 to ref saves
... -2 to Dex-related skill checks
... -2 to hit with missle weapons (net penalty of -4)
Forces a DC 15 concentration check on spellcasting if bound.
Unable to move pending a ref save (DC set by caster), or a full round action making DC 20 str or escape artist check.
Reduced to half movemet speed if not stuck in place.
Effect reapplies itself every round subject is within the spell's area. Spell lasts 1 minute/caster level.
Protected against by means of Freedom of Movement, a 4th level spell.


Tanglefoot Bags arn't Enervation In A Can. Enervation penalizes everything you do. Enervation steals spells. Enervation can flat-out kill you.

Tanglefoot Bags are a watered down version of a 1st level druid spell.

 

[hong]

Okay, so if one PC become entangled for 2d4 rounds, and he "might as well slash his own wrists", how do all of you handle Entangle, which is a 1st level spell that affects a 40' radius and has a higher avoidance and escape DC, as well as lasting 1 minute a level, meaning at the *least* 10 rounds?

I consider it cheese as well.

 

[Bad Paper]

I believe a 3E designer has admitted the tanglefoot bag was a mistake. Or maybe that was "Find The Path"

wha? What's wrong with FtP?

Also, I am thinking that maybe what tanglefoot bags need is an expiration date. Like, if you don't use it within three days of manufacture, it becomes less effective (DC drops by 2, duration halves), and then in another three days it is just a medicine ball.

 

[Presto2112]

I love when my players use tanglefoot bags on my NPCs. I usually let it work once or twice, then I have an NPC ready an action to pop the bag with an arrow as soon as the PC pulls it out of his backpack. Hilarity ensues.

What a nifty use for Ranged Disarm! Or Ranged Sunder!

 

[blargney the second]

Proud Nails.
-blarg