Pathfinder 1E Should LPJ Design increase their writers pay rate to 4 cents a word on a Pathfinder p

[Morrus]

Where I'm confused here is what the publishers are contributing?

Mainly, the money.

Nobody's trying to persuade you to do something. If you really think you can make a load of money creating and selling a product all by yourself, more power to you. Go for it! It has worked for some people.

But using ZEITGEIST as an example? The publisher (me) is contributing roughly $50,000 worth of art, marketing, layout, distribution, editing, and more. And that assumes you don't want it in bookstores, in which case you're adding in printing and shipping costs.

 

[Morrus]

In film (different industry, blah blah blah) a portion of the film's gross is rare nowadays. Even big-name artists (generally) don't get it.

The possibilities are (1) nobody asks for it, and (2) nobody's worth it.

It seems, Nedjer, you're suggesting that a suitably-modest percentage of the profits - say, 1%? - from a PDF product is worth <more> than $ 400.

That would mean you're anticipating that product making $ 40,000. While I'm admittedly not in RPG sales, that figure - for the average not-bad-but-not-great PDF seems ... optimistic.

And I'm certain that numbers greater than 1% make a significant difference in profitability of the venture, in the end.

Edit - At $ 2.50profit a copy, that's 16,000 copies. Yeah, that seems optimistic, from a not-in-any-way-in-the-industry perspective.

Certainly, given the 300-1000 copies cited above for a small press Pathfinder publisher, that means Nedjer is going to make (assuming a midpoint of 600 copies).... a grand total of $15!

 

[nedjer]

Just wondering but how many sales do you think a typical RPG PDF get?

Typical's a hard one. For products I've liked in many ways, a Freeport, a Mongoose Traveller or a City State of the Invincible Overlord, I'd have thought they'd well get past 3 figures; but I have no data for that.

The technologies pack for Stone Age the RPG - likely a different matter. Have to wonder if that can be considered a business opportunity in the first place.

 

[nedjer]

Read a post by the guy who wrote Mongoose Traveller and a ton of other stuff. Said he's done 500,000 RPG words by the cents, holds no rights and feels he's not been able to deliver the quality he could while keeping bread on the table. Looking to go it alone - and I'm not even getting into some of the attitude he seems to have had to put up with. Ain't right.

 

[Morrus]

I just realised I'm posting on an internet messageboard arguing with a guy trying to persuade me that my proven business model is wrong, and that I should use his idea instead! And I don't even know who he is!

Heh, I think I'm out of here. I don't think I can afford this thread!

 

[nedjer]

I'm one of Scotland's top 50 window cleaners - janitorial services available on application Might be best not to put the mortgage on me.

 

[pawsplay]

I get it's not a wage, but I see practical benefits for all in raising expectations and options.

Take a product like your forthcoming Pathfinder add-on. A kick-in annual royalty deal for the art and content, with a crowdsourced pre-sales campaign - looks like risks removed, everyone's in on the marketing, up-front costs gone and smiles all round if it does better than expected?

You are welcome to entertain whatever notions you wish. In my evaluation, this model has been tried, repeatedly, under ideal market conditions, and has rarely been successful for anyone involved. Pittances for writers, annoying small royalty checks for the publishers to write... it also complicates any question of reselling the work to a larger publisher, which is probably the only a small press product is going to turn into $$$bank$$$.

In my view, if you throw a couple hundred around at your writers, artists, and other freelancers, and you make your money back with a nice profit, then everyone can smile.

As for the business of being a freelancer, it is a business. If you're freelancers can't smell a dubious pot of vindaloo when you serve it to them, you may (or may not) profit from their skills in the short term, but they are going to be difficult to manage... frequently unavailable due to poor judgment in allocating their time and energies, prone to disappointment and unrealistic expectations, perhaps at risk to badmouth you on the Internet. I'd rather work with someone who knows that $25, or $250, or $2500, free and clear, is a good thing to have. That's good money for working in a hobby field, and if you plan on going full-time, you are going to need some paid gigs under your belt.

Royalties, shmoyalties.

Working for a small press is like playing a gig at the bar-laundromat; you do it for pizza money, eternal glory, and exposure. And you're happy. Or you pick a different line of work. Or you go into business for yourself.

 

[darjr]

Read a post by the guy who wrote Mongoose Traveller and a ton of other stuff. Said he's done 500,000 RPG words by the cents, holds no rights and feels he's not been able to deliver the quality he could while keeping bread on the table. Looking to go it alone - and I'm not even getting into some of the attitude he seems to have had to put up with. Ain't right.

I think Cubicle 7 just hired him.

 

[gamerprinter]

I began my side career as a freelancer, a cartographer, not a writer and continue to gain more work for commissions, however, I wasn't satisfied with being just a freelancer, so I decided to toss my development ball into the ring, and now I am working with Rite Publishing to develop my own RPG property in the form of Kaidan. I want to eventually be my own publisher, but I am taking baby steps, learning from the best people I can.

I knew that while I could make some money as a pro fantasy cartographer, I could make even more money with my own product (setting, adventures and supplements) so that's what I'm doing.

Regarding my mapping gigs, I am not the lowest bidder ever, in fact I'm usually the most expensive, yet I still get the commissions I bid for, because my talent is known, and publishers wanting better quality are willing to pay for it.

Since Kaidan is my project, I can do what most publishers cannot and that is fill my adventures to the gills with maps. Maps are generally among the most expensive freelance payouts a publisher can make, so most adventures feature only 1 to 3 maps. My first adventure features 14 maps, nobody can do that affordably. I eat the cost of my maps for my publication as a means to maximize profits and come out with a map heavy product, that has no competition. Unless a publisher is also a top mapper, it just can't be done. So that's my edge.

GP

 

[lmpjr007]

I began my side career as a freelancer, a cartographer, not a writer and continue to gain more work for commissions, however, I wasn't satisfied with being just a freelancer, so I decided to toss my development ball into the ring, and now I am working with Rite Publishing to develop my own RPG property in the form of Kaidan. I want to eventually be my own publisher, but I am taking baby steps, learning from the best people I can.

You have to be a little mentally deficient to want to be a publisher. Trust me on this one. LOL!!!

Regarding my mapping gigs, I am not the lowest bidder ever, in fact I'm usually the most expensive, yet I still get the commissions I bid for, because my talent is known, and publishers wanting better quality are willing to pay for it.

Paying for quality is usually a good long term strategy in anything.

Since Kaidan is my project, I can do what most publishers cannot and that is fill my adventures to the gills with maps. Maps are generally among the most expensive freelance payouts a publisher can make, so most adventures feature only 1 to 3 maps. My first adventure features 14 maps, nobody can do that affordably. I eat the cost of my maps for my publication as a means to maximize profits and come out with a map heavy product, that has no competition. Unless a publisher is also a top mapper, it just can't be done. So that's my edge.

Artwork (maps or images) is the real game changer in any product, for me at least. The visual elements of a product are hard to reproduce cheaply and if you can over come that hurdle, that will give you a lot more more to "breathe" when planning your product and your profit margin. I would KILL to have 14 maps in a project.