Should magic be unfair?

[Plane Sailing]

It makes about as much sense as saying "hey, I ought to be able to stab him in the stomach with my sword and he automatically dies horribly".

However, you could easily remove the ST mechanic and say that the spells are irrisistable but have to be targetted correctly - and get the wizard to make a magical attack roll or spell roll or whatever against a DC analogous to the fighters attack roll against AC.

For heart ripping with telekinesis my sorcerers current favourite tactic is using telekinesis to grapple someone and then use the "do damage" option doing 1d3+8 damage each round. If you get someone to -10hp then "ping" you've managed to rip their heart out - it just takes longer to do it against a higher level target (she could rip a peasants heart out in 2r with telekinesis if she was evil - one round to grapple, one round to damage).

There are other gaming systems which don't have saving throws at all, and they have other ways of handling magic without allowing it to dominate the game.

Cheers

 

[Hand of Evil]

You know it is...while a mage could do those things with magic, the D&D world is full of magic and that allows you to save. Call it aura, soul, spirit, it is the stuff that makes players a cut above.

 

[Vaxalon]

But from a narrative standpoint, it kinda makes sense. Some abilities are really strong, and maybe those sorts of powers should be higher level, and then not allow a save.

Okay, let's take a narrative viewpoint.

In the Star Wars universe, when the Emperor throws his force lightning at Luke, he doesn't immediately die, in spite of being wounded and weakened. Why? Because he has to live long enough for Darth Vader to save him. Surely, the Emperor (who had hardly been exerting himself at all) should have been able to blast Luke to smithereens.

From a narrative viewpoint, the heroes of the story HAVE to get "saving throws" or some kind of resistance to the attacks of their enemies, or there's no narrative.

 

[diaglo]

he needs to play OD&D

research his own spells and see just what spell level the referee deems is appropriate.

 

[Henry]

Ask an actual practicioner of Wicca about the power of belief and will over the results of magic. That can work both ways.


Therefore, even though D&D's version of magic can rip open chests and paralyze you, Simple resistance through will can flub up the spell. The more powerful the spell, the more you can batter through someone's will to affect them automatically. A 9th level spell SHOULD be able to rip someone's heart out of their chest with no defense, but it NEEDS to be high-level if it's going to totally override a resister's will.

 

[DragonLancer]

I have a friend who thinks that saving throws are stupid, particularly Will saves for non-mind control spells. He thinks that, if a mage knows Telekinesis, he ought to be able to rip your heart out of your chest, or at least yank your sword out of its sheath, without you getting a save.

If he wants such a game run it, but put him up against an NPC caster who uses those spells against him. Teach him, that the saves are there for game balance.

 

[Umbran]

But from a narrative standpoint, it kinda makes sense. Some abilities are really strong, and maybe those sorts of powers should be higher level, and then not allow a save.

No, from a narrative standpoint, magic shoudl work in whatever way improves the narrative. If the BBEG rips out the heart of the hero, or kills him with Mage Hand choke on page three of the story, the narrative suffers tremendously. From a narrative standpoint, magic needs limitations.

Another way of thinking about it - from a narrative standpoint, magic can go ahead and do whateverit wants to normal people. But the PCs are not normal people. They are main characters, a cut above normal folk. From one point of view, saving throws are there specifically to emulate the narrative-building resistance PCs have

Poison should just run its course. A save would let you slow the progress of the poison, but not even the healthiest person can just shrug off a dose of arsenic.

Never read about the death of Rasputin, did you? That was cyanide instead of arsenic, but the idea is the same.

...but does anyone want to have a game that is designed to emulate what magic would be like if it did exist, instead of a game in which magic is balanced for the sake of fun?

But you aren't describing what magic would be like if it did exist. None of us really know what it would be like. Maybe it would only be capable of generating rude noises. Maybe every use of magic would release energy equivalent to a nova stellar explosion, incinerating the solar system in which magic was used.

Maybe magic does exist, and it operates in a manner so much more subtle than your proposition that you can't see it for what it is

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I'm quite with other people who say that saving throws increase the narrative fun. All powerful magic just isn't going to be a lot of fun?

From a narrative angle, I guess you could only allow saving throws for people with a level in a PC class or more than 1 NPC level? Continued living is a privelege for the important.

1st level NPC class guys are totally prone to magic. Don't think it would really change the game much... A fireball would fry them, save or no. Might make Mass 'X' spells fractionally more effective. A high level caster won't even get 1 in 20 escaping from thier mass suggestion spell?

Allows the wizard PC to showboat on commoners - if that's really going to make him feel like the 'big (wo)man'?

 

[jasper]

I... He thinks that, if a mage knows Telekinesis, he ought to be able to rip your heart out of your chest, or at least yank your sword out of its sheath, without you getting a save.

..

I rephrase a comment a friend made about critical hit tables last night. It fun when you doing it. Not fun when you on the recieving end. My suggestion. Allow Tk to do as he wants. Then rip his heart out.

 

[WayneLigon]

But from a narrative standpoint, it kinda makes sense. Some abilities are really strong, and maybe those sorts of powers should be higher level, and then not allow a save....This wouldn't fit the game's style, but does anyone want to have a game that is designed to emulate what magic would be like if it did exist, instead of a game in which magic is balanced for the sake of fun?

Ars Magica is already kinda like that; there really isn't a way for most people to resist spells save through sheer luck if I remember correctly. It just sounds like he's thinking about the situation too logically, without thinking about how unbalancing it would be in a fun/game sense. Much like superpowers, if D&D-strength magic really did exist in our world there would be wizards and then there would be their servants: ie, everybody else.