D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Irlo]

The issue is that the masters of the arcane aren't masters of the arcane(arcana), yet rogues who aren't anything of the arcane(excepting the odd subclass) are masters of the arcane. It's nonsense.

Yes, I understand your perspective on that.

You claimed that CreamCloud0's example relied on homebrew. It doesn't.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, I understand your perspective on that.

You claimed that CreamCloud0's example relied on homebrew. It doesn't.

Yes it does. He is literally saying the opposite of what the PHB says.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Maybe in your homebrew that's the case,

i have no homebrew i am not a dm (or even player unfortunately)

but not in default D&D. In 5e the class literally has an entire section devoted to them called "Scholars of the Arcane" and another called "The Lure of Knowledge" where it talks about what experts they are at the arcane.

Which is a wizards thing.

sorry i should have been clearer, i meant the Arcana skill, the Arcana skill is alot of the formal educational fluff around the concept of magic, information which has very little correlation to your actual ability or skill to cast magic, wizards seek the knowledge of how to cast new spells but that knowledge is almost an entirely separate thing from Arcana which is mostly knowledge of the history and practices,

the knowledge a wizard seeks are blueprints on how to build an iphone, but arcana is knowing who steve jobs is,

Yep. Wizards would know that. Rogues, not so much. It's not a roguish skill.

a wizard might know that but has no real need to in order to cast fireball, rogues might not need to but if they do happen to pick it up they get to apply that rogues are better at mastering mundane skills, like the history and theory of magic, while the wizard gets to learn the skill of using arcane powers (not the same thing as Arcana Skill)

Again, if you homebrew your wizards to be this way, that's fine. The rules WotC puts out, though, don't do that.

in the rules WotC puts out the Arcana skill is entirely unrelated to a wizard's casting capabilities.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Yes it does. He is literally saying the opposite of what the PHB says.

what specifically is it you are claiming that i said that is opposite the PHB?

 

[Maxperson]

what specifically are you claiming i said that is opposite the PHB?

The portion where you say, "the wizard's skill isn't that they know Arcana, it's that they know Magic" Magic spells aren't a skill. The skills are listed on page 174 of the PHB. The wizard's primary skill is that arcana and they are the masters and renowned experts on that subject. And the portion where you say, "wizard: "who cares about all that nonsense..."

Wizards do care about arcana. A wizard who doesn't is playing opposite to what the PHB says. Now as an individual PC/NPC that's fine, but if you were putting that forward as only an individual example, it shouldn't have been said. This is a discussion about the class as a whole, not individuals.

 

[Irlo]

Yes it does. He is literally saying the opposite of what the PHB says.

One more time and then I'll leave it be.

By RAW, the rogue can have expertise in arcana. Also by RAW, a wizard with a low intelligence and no proficiency in arcana can cast a fireball. Hence, this interaction --

"in what year did Raggalthim of the Crimson Pyre develop the primary rune circle for what would become the basis of Fireball?"

rogue: "that would be 1877, but it is most commonly mistaken as occuring in 1881 due to having his breakthrough in development that year which would directly lead to Fireball but the primary rune circle had existed in completion for a few years at that point"

wizard: "who cares about all that nonsense when you can just cast the spells that stuff tells me about, HEY EVERYONE WATCH THIS!" [incinerates classroom in 8d6 fire damage]

-- is completely supported by RAW.

Fortunately, since you find it nonsensical, it's easy for you to homebrew a fix.

 

[Maxperson]

i have no homebrew i am not a dm (or even player unfortunately)

sorry i should have been clearer, i meant the Arcana skill, the Arcana skill is alot of the formal educational fluff around the concept of magic, information which has very little correlation to your actual ability or skill to cast magic, wizards seek the knowledge of how to cast new spells but that knowledge is almost an entirely separate thing from Arcana which is mostly knowledge of the history and practices,

I got what you were trying to say. It's just wrong. Wizards do more than just care about casting spells. They care very deeply about the theories, history, and mysteries of all things arcane.

the knowledge a wizard seeks are blueprints on how to build an iphone, but arcana is knowing who steve jobs is,

That's actually incorrect. History is knowing who Steve Jobs is. It covers legendary people.

Arcana is "Arcana. Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes."

a wizard might know that but has no real need to in order to cast fireball,

They study those things as a matter of course. The lore on spells, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, etc. are the foundation of how they create new spells.

rogues might not need to but if they do happen to pick it up they get to apply that rogues are better at mastering mundane skills, like the history and theory of magic, while the wizard gets to learn the skill of using arcane powers (not the same thing as Arcana Skill)

Some guy who happened to "pick it up" shouldn't be better than the masters of the skill and who spend years learning its secrets, and then spend a lifetime ferreting out even more secrets and knowledge of the arcane.

 

[Maxperson]

One more time and then I'll leave it be.

By RAW, the rogue can have expertise in arcana. Also by RAW, a wizard with a low intelligence and no proficiency in arcana can cast a fireball. Hence, this interaction --

-- is completely supported by RAW.

Fortunately, since you find it nonsensical, it's easy for you to homebrew a fix.

I see. You guys are talking about individuals and I'm talking about the classes as a whole. It's apples and oranges at this point if that's the case. What a select individual can do is irrelevant to a discussion about what the classes represent as a whole.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Arcana is "Arcana. Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes."
They study those things as a matter of course. The lore on spells, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, etc. are the foundation of how they create new spells.

For 5e, anyway, Arcana is a skill that wizards can choose. They could choose History or Religion or Investigation, instead.

A wizard can learn and cast as many spells as any other wizard, as well as any other wizard, reach the zenith of power and cast Wish, all without ever having gained proficiency in the Arcana skill.

You guys are talking about individuals and I'm talking about the classes as a whole. It's apples and oranges at this point if that's the case. What a select individual can do is irrelevant to a discussion about what the classes represent as a whole.

I'm sorry, if you're talking about the class as a whole, you're talking about things that all individuals of that class would have in common. All wizards can cast spells, for instance, but there's no one spell that all wizards must cast, you can't say, "a wizard who doesn't cast Unseen Servant isn't a real wizard" - there used to be, back in the day: read magic, but not in 5e. By the same token, you can't say a wizard who doesn't have proficiency in Arcana isn't a wizard.

I agree that, with Sorcerers and Warlock in the game representing arcane casters who don't study for their magic, that's maybe a bit odd, maybe Arcana should have stayed automatic for Wizards, like it was in 4e. But it didn't. 5e Wizards don't need to study Arcana, let alone as a matter of course. At least, not diligently enough to gain proficiency.

 

[Maxperson]

For 5e, anyway, Arcana is a skill that wizards can choose. They could choose History or Religion or Investigation, instead.

A wizard can learn and cast as many spells as any other wizard, as well as any other wizard, reach the zenith of power and cast Wish, all without ever having gained proficiency in the Arcana skill.

I agree that, with Sorcerers and Warlock in the game, that's maybe a bit odd, maybe Arcana should have stayed automatic for Wizards, like it was in 4e. But it didn't. 5e Wizards don't need to study Arcana, let alone as a matter of course. At least, not diligently enough to gain proficiency.

That's an individual option, though. The class as a whole embraces arcana and the knowledge. And I can count on one hand and have 4 fingers and 1 thumb left over how many wizards I've seen played in 5e that don't have the arcana skill. It's their thing and players overwhelmingly pick it for their wizard PCs.