D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

IMO, they're as normal as spider-goats. Created in a lab, not evolved, but now part of the general ecosystem.
(Although spider-goats aren't part of our ecosystem, they could be.)
"Artificial" - the result of human artifice, ingenuity, technology, whatever - would be a way to put it that implies neither natural nor supernatural.

Amusingly they're not mundane, atm they're quite the oddity, but, if put into large scales web-fiber-production, could become so. 🤷‍♂️
 

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It'd be a nice step toward fixing that is D&D could just admit that owlbears and griffons are just normal-ass animals in their world instead of doing backbends in typing to imply that anything not from Earth is some weird monstrosity despite just being a critter that exists with no magic powers at all.
In my world stuff like that which are jus basically weird animals are beasts and not monstrosities.
 



For Rogues and Bards, as the skill classes, to have a higher ceiling than other classes in any skill the Rogues or Bards have proficiency in and specialize in with their expertise.

For the rogue with expertise in arcana this generally means knowing arcana from their background.

One iconic D&D exemplar of a scholar rogue dating back to AD&D would be Dr. Rudolph Van Richten.

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Why does that mean that rogues can reach levels of competency in Arcana no wizard ever could? How does that follow?
 

I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with us there. :p
I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me: nobody cares for the rogues as I care for them, not even authors nowadays. :D

For me, a class implies an expertise. If you want to fight better, you can spend feats to improve your skill with a weapon. If you want to know more about magic, you can spend feats to learn about theories, subjects, or entities about magic. But, you can't fight better than a Fighter of your level and you can't know more about magic than a Wizard of your level. If you want to be top dog in something, pick the appropriate class that is top dog in that field. That's the main thing about a class / level system in my mind.

"Artificial" - the result of human artifice, ingenuity, technology, whatever - would be a way to put it that implies neither natural nor supernatural.

Amusingly they're not mundane, atm they're quite the oddity, but, if put into large scales web-fiber-production, could become so. 🤷‍♂️
Well, if "a wizard did it" counts as artificial that works for me.

(So many edits)
 
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I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me: nobody cares for the rogues as I care for them, not even authors nowadays.
Or any days. Rogues have it bad now, but still better than they did back when they were Thieves.
Well, if "a wizard did it" counts as artificial that works for me.
I mean, if an Artificer did it, it /must/ be artificial, and the Artificer was originally a flavor of Wizard, so, that sounds good to me. (y)
 

Why does that mean that rogues can reach levels of competency in Arcana no wizard ever could? How does that follow?
It just follows from the rules.
The rules were concieved, back in 3.0, as, like "Rogues are the skillz class!" and they didn't think too hard about, what if a rogue managed to finagle Spellcraft or Knowledge: Arcane as class skills and max them out... or, for that matter, an NPC Expert could maximize those skills (in spite of no spellcasting ability) quite easily, since it picked its own class skills. 3e even coined, at some point, the term "Theoretical Thaumaturge" for a character with high Spellcraft and knowledge who didn't cast spells, at all. 4e & 5e, while they have simpler skill systems, did not back off from allowing non-casters to have caster-associated skills, so the idiosyncrasy remains. It's a system artifact.
Whether it's a legit way of modeling a world of magic, I suppose, depends on how you imagine worlds of magic being, and how you concieve of magic. Is magic just like, an alt.physics and scientists studying magic in a D&D world would be able to divine it's mysteries via experimentation (given cooperative casters to experiment with), or is magic something else entirely that defies such analysis?
 


Why does that mean that rogues can reach levels of competency in Arcana no wizard ever could? How does that follow?
Because being a master of any skill means being a master of any skill, and while wizards are masters of spells they are focused on being magic users and not ultimate mundane skill mastery, even in the related knowledge mundane skill.

I feel the normal 5e situation of wizards have int as their primary class stat and arcana as on their skill list covers their stereotypical high levels of arcana competence while giving rogues the edge in their chosen skills, but not giving rogues arcana as a class skill or int as a general primary stat covers the general archetypes while allowing rogues more flexibility in their skills concept than they previously had.

This seems to be backed up by the 5e class descriptions in the PH.

"Rogues devote as much effort to mastering the use of a variety of skills as they do to perfecting their combat abilities, giving them a broad expertise that few other characters can match."

"Wizards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast."

Even the section for wizards titled scholars of the arcane is all about the wizards' use of spells.

SCHOLARS OF THE ARCANE
Wild and enigmatic, varied in form and function, the power of magic draws students who seek to master its mysteries. Some aspire to become like the gods, shaping reality itself. Though the casting of a typical spell requires merely the utterance of a few strange words, fleeting gestures, and sometimes a pinch or clump of exotic materials, these surface components barely hint at the expertise attained after years of apprenticeship and countless hours of study.
Wizards live and die by their spells. Everything else is secondary. They learn new spells as they experiment and grow in experience. They can also learn them from other wizards, from ancient tomes or inscriptions, and from ancient creatures (such as the fey) that are steeped in magic.

It is a specific design choice to allow rogues and bards to have skill expertise in any skill and to give wizards a reinforcing double basis for good arcana checks easily (stat and class skill), but not expertise. It does allow the skill classes to be more flexible skill masters in a D&D game where everyone has a decent number of skills (minimum of four compared to the minimum of one in 3e) in a bound accuracy environment.

It makes enough sense to me and I think it works fairly well in the 5e context.

Other setups are viable too and could lead to different theoretical builds and class upper limits for different potential flavor. You could easily house rule to restrict rogues to expertise in their class skills, or grant wizards expertise in arcana, or allow a feat to grant expertise for the cost of a feat.
 

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