D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Wait a minute. Are people actually arguing here that it makes sense for rogues to have a higher ceiling for arcane knowledge than wizards?
I'm glad Wizard is the least played class at all my tables so this never comes up. :)

I've generally done in my games what BG3 does; treat the presence of a particular class tag as automatic advantage or auto-success on a relevant skill check.
 

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Voadam

Legend
Wait a minute. Are people actually arguing here that it makes sense for rogues to have a higher ceiling for arcane knowledge than wizards?

For Rogues and Bards, as the skill classes, to have a higher ceiling than other classes in any skill the Rogues or Bards have proficiency in and specialize in with their expertise.

For the rogue with expertise in arcana this generally means knowing arcana from their background.

One iconic D&D exemplar of a scholar rogue dating back to AD&D would be Dr. Rudolph Van Richten.

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Personally, I hate that somewhere along the line, we had to make a distinction between "mundane" and "supernatural" to begin with. I remember a time when Dwarves could make magic weapons and armor for no other reason than they were Dwarves, no spellcasting required- the same Dwarves who were so resistant to magic they could only be Clerics, mind you.

Everyone and everything is magical in D&D; the PHB tells us that the stuff of magic is found in everything in existence in Chapter 10, when explaining the Weave. Sure, not everyone can use this magic on demand, but it's there, so any time a character accomplishes something we Terrans would deem "impossible" or "supernatural", that's your explanation.

The need for some to wall off certain characters and say "nope, this guy is 100% normal" in a world where "normal" includes Owlbears, Trolls, and pointy-eared guys who can warp space to teleport short distances 1/short rest baffles me. And no matter how extraordinary the feats these "normal" characters can accomplish, be it the astonishing recuperative abilities of the Fighter's Second Wind, or the time-bending properties of their Action Surge, the ability to somehow resist swords and arrows of the Barbarian's Rage, or even the Rogue's ability to find a vulnerable point to deal additional damage with Sneak Attack against any creature they encounter, whether they've even heard of it or not- some people refuse to entertain the idea that anything unusual is going on, or that the existence of these abilities is evidence or even justification for allowing them to perform other extraordinary feats without explicitly stamping the word "magic" on them.
 
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It'd be a nice step toward fixing that is D&D could just admit that owlbears and griffons are just normal-ass animals in their world instead of doing backbends in typing to imply that anything not from Earth is some weird monstrosity despite just being a critter that exists with no magic powers at all.
IMO, they're as normal as spider-goats. Created in a lab, not evolved, but now part of the general ecosystem.

(Although spider-goats aren't part of our ecosystem, they could be.)
 



Tony Vargas

Legend
Wait a minute. Are people actually arguing here that it makes sense for rogues to have a higher ceiling for arcane knowledge than wizards?
There's always someone willing to argue for what D&D delivers as being the one right & true way, and the current ed does give rogues Expertise that they can throw to Arcana while not doing the same for Wizards, so, yeah people will argue that. 🤷‍♂️
5e.2024 is on track to let anyone get expertise in any skill with a feat, so that'll clear that up, the Wizard will be 'best at arcana' in the same no-one-else-can-be-better sense that the 5e fighter is best at fighting (with weapons (without magic))....
 
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