D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Micah Sweet]

Battlemaster's Goading Attack manoeuvre basically does this:

"When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to goad the target into attacking you. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on all attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn."

This is much better than any nonmagical effect that forces an opponent to move toward you regardless of circumstance.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

How many adventures, 5e WotC provided, are even hitting Tier 4?

I'd have to go double check, but I'm willing to bet that is a fraction of the printed material/content.

Sure. But they could be more explicit that one can start at level higher than one, and on the other hand that not all campaigns (such as their own APs) need to reach the top levels, so people don't expect that.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No, but we have things which we suspend disbelief for to keep the game rolling.

And this only applies to select aspects (like extreme athleticism for hours on end while burdened with 50+ pounds/23+ kilograms, throwing objects long distances, climbing surfaces extremely quickly), but not to others because...reasons?

 

[Micah Sweet]

And this only applies to select aspects (like extreme athleticism for hours on end while burdened with 50+ pounds/23+ kilograms, throwing objects long distances, climbing surfaces extremely quickly), but not to others because...reasons?

Right. Verisimilitude has to cover everything or it's meaningless.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Sure. But they could be more explicit that one can start at level higher than one, and on the other hand that not all campaigns (such as their own APs) need to reach the top levels, so people don't expect that.

Frankly, the only way to break the "you ABSOLUTELY MUST start at level 1" pattern is to make some really, really good adventures that exclusively start at much higher levels, but still explicitly mark the characters as starting there....

...and even then I'm not convinced it will happen. There is a bullheadedness to this pattern. First level is first level. Why would you ever start anywhere else? What do you mean, "that won't be as enjoyable as starting higher"? Why would they call it first level if it's not the level that's supposed to happen first?????

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Right. Verisimilitude has to cover everything or it's meaningless.

No, but when you specifically and explicitly reject something because it is Olympic-level athleticism, only to turn around and not only accept, not only embrace, but desire other things that are at least Olympic-level athleticism, can you understand why I would kinda give the stink eye to that?

The standard is presented as principled--as a requirement for something to make sense and be reasonable--only to then be violated whenever and wherever it becomes inconvenient only for the person advancing the standard. Any time anyone else has a problem with that standard, well, they're just going to have to like it or lump it, right?

 

[Scribe]

And this only applies to select aspects (like extreme athleticism for hours on end while burdened with 50+ pounds/23+ kilograms, throwing objects long distances, climbing surfaces extremely quickly), but not to others because...reasons?

Yes, reasons. Just like the other thread that got derailed, for reasons.

Jumping long distances while burdened with gear? Part of the game, it is what it is.
Magic happening? Part of the game, is what it is.
Halfling Barbarians with 18 Str at Level 1? An abomination of a concept.

We win some, we lose some.

 

[Pedantic]

No, it isn't. It's supernatural. The supernatural is more than just magic. Especially because 99.9999999% of magic in D&D is shackled specifically to spellcasting. As you literally just showed above.

The first half of this is actually nonsense. There is no difference, and everything I have ever said about magic could interchangeably use the word "supernatural" without adjusting the meaning. You've described a blacksmith doing magic, and elided how they've done so, because folkloric mysticism relies on not systematizing things, while a roleplaying game does.

The second point you're making is completely reasonable, and 5e has really doubled down on precisely one delivery system for magical abilities, which is especially frustrating because of how inappropriate VSM components are for any other form.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, but when you specifically and explicitly reject something because it is Olympic-level athleticism, only to turn around and not only accept, not only embrace, but desire other things that are at least Olympic-level athleticism, can you understand why I would kinda give the stink eye to that?

The standard is presented as principled--as a requirement for something to make sense and be reasonable--only to then be violated whenever and wherever it becomes inconvenient only for the person advancing the standard. Any time anyone else has a problem with that standard, well, they're just going to have to like it or lump it, right?

I don't like hit points, but it's something of a necessary evil, and there are various things that can be worked around it to make it more palatable (resting times and locations, injury rules, whether or not you can get back into a fight after being dropped, what have you). Any other factor can be negotiated, and if someone I game with, or someone here, thinks the rules are more limiting than what is actually possible in the real world, I am open to discussing those issues and perhaps changing my stance on them.

I want the world, outside of supernatural factors, to operate as much like the real world as is practical in a TTRPG. That's my driving motivation. I'm aware that is subjective, but that's what I want.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't like hit points, but it's something of a necessary evil, and there are various things that can be worked around it to make it more palatable (resting times and locations, injury rules, whether or not you can get back into a fight after being dropped, what have you). Any other factor can be negotiated, and if someone I game with, or someone here, thinks the rules are more limiting than what is actually possible in the real world, I am open to discussing those issues and perhaps changing my stance on them.

I want the world, outside of supernatural factors, to operate as much like the real world as is practical in a TTRPG. That's my driving motivation. I'm aware that is subjective, but that's what I want.

Alright. My argument, then, is that the lines in the sand a lot of people draw are impractically close to the real world, not to practical and functional game design.