D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Umbran]

"Are DMs mandated to give mundane characters rare or better magic items that complete their archetype?"​

No need to shout. I mean, really, please don't do that.

The answer, or course, lies in differences in genre. Ultimately, while you can make a character that is in some ways similar to Captain America, that character comes from a different genre, with different expectations.

Comic books are filled with basically normal people who have equipment that in a D&D world would be magical as starting gear. But comics are a different genre, so Cap isn't really a D&D fighter, and the analogy breaks down.

 

[MichaelSomething]

if you read my previous post(s) you will see I advocate for both options so that everyone can have the style they want and there are levers to pull.

My group prefers more classic play largely but not entirely.

If only more people agreed with you...

 

[Corinnguard]

"Are DMs mandated to give mundane characters rare or better magic items that complete their archetype?"

If there was such a mandate, wouldn't it be found somewhere in the DMG for a DM to find?

 

[Staffan]

Battlemaster's Goading Attack manoeuvre basically does this:

"When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to goad the target into attacking you. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on all attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn."

That's pretty weaksauce compared to the 4e fighter though. The fighter marked their target on any attack, which means they get -2 to attack anyone else (and while the effects are hard to compare because of dice, a -2 in 4e serves pretty much the same game purpose as disadvantage in 5e). In addition, if a marked target made an attack that didn't include the fighter, the fighter got to smack them. I don't recall if this was technically separate from attacks of opportunity, but it was more or less the same thing. Anyway, the effect was more "I'm in your face and you'd better focus on me and not my friends or I'll make you regret it" than a psych-out.

So the Goading Attack is (a) limited in use, (b) gives a save, and (c) doesn't give the fighter an extra attack. On the plus side, it does do a bit of bonus damage up front instead. That said, the 4e fighter was explicitly designed as a Defender (Tank in MMO parlance) while the 5e fighter is more of a generalist who can lean either way.

 

[jgsugden]

I'm not sure why this is really a question. The answer should be: Both so that players have options to tell the story they want to tell.

In truth, however, 'mundane' is never really mundane. If you look at the epitome of the 'normal person' characters in comics you'll see them exceeding the limits of reality often. Whether it is Godlike accuracy of Hawkeye, the insane athletic capability of Batman that far exceeds the limits of Olympic athletes, the inexplicable ability of Black Widow to get through alarm systems and locked doors as if by magic, or every hero's ability to recover from life altering wounds overnight - without scars.

In my setting I have an explanation for why a Champion or Battlemaster is better than a town guard. PCs, and some important NPCs, are Godtouched. The Raven Queen murdered a Dwarven Death Deity and wiped his name from existence. When she did so, she ascended to Godhood - and immediately gave up the power by shattering it and placing it into tens of thousands of mortals. This allowed them to 'advance' as PCs do. Without the Godtouch, it takes a person 70 years of work to master a single third level spell. Elven non-Godtouched mages might master a 5th level spell over 700 years of effort. However, the Godtouched can rise from nothing to mastery of 9th level spells in the span of a year or two.

When it comes to fighters, barbarians, monks, rogues and other potentially 'mundane' classes, this explanation allows me to treat them more like Captain America - someone that is theoreticlaly mundane, but is so good at what they do that they seem magical. I tend to really play up that these PCs are doing the impossible when they achieve many of their class abilitiy limits.

 

[Oofta]

Well here is a confession. We also have a diviner wizard 10 in our party and he does not dominate.

I don’t want to be accused of minimizing other peoples issues…but I sincerely wonder if my group may have a different play style or focus.

But back on topic, flavor matters and options matter. If fighters as a standard power jump like the hulk and punch everyone in a huge are like the Flash on amphetamines, count me out!

It’s cool for others. No judgment! Just does. It fit the game I like best

I really wish I knew why others see an issue. Yes, sometimes the wizard does cool stuff. Other times someone else gets the spotlight. The roles are different, but everyone still contributes.

Maybe it's just a different perspective. For example if the cleric casts speak with dead, we're all figuring out what to ask even if the cleric is casting the spell. As a DM I find myself having to go out of the way to make the wizard feel special.

In any case, I understand feeling like something just doesn't work for you. It sucks. But there's no way the game can work for absolutely everyone, people just want different things. I want the option to play a mundane fighter because there are plenty of options for supernatural ones.

 

[Oofta]

So the solution is to exclude people who don't have the correct playstyle???

I don't want to make light of your predicament, but no game can cater to every possible customer. No game can be perfect for everyone, which sucks for some people. Even if they make a game that works great for 80% of their target market, that 20% still gets "excluded" because someone always will be.

You can't please everyone, if you try you often end up pleasing no one.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not sure why this is really a question. The answer should be: Both so that players have options to tell the story they want to tell.

In truth, however, 'mundane' is never really mundane. If you look at the epitome of the 'normal person' characters in comics you'll see them exceeding the limits of reality often. Whether it is Godlike accuracy of Hawkeye, the insane athletic capability of Batman that far exceeds the limits of Olympic athletes, the inexplicable ability of Black Widow to get through alarm systems and locked doors as if by magic, or every hero's ability to recover from life altering wounds overnight - without scars.

In my setting I have an explanation for why a Champion or Battlemaster is better than a town guard. PCs, and some important NPCs, are Godtouched. The Raven Queen murdered a Dwarven Death Deity and wiped his name from existence. When she did so, she ascended to Godhood - and immediately gave up the power by shattering it and placing it into tens of thousands of mortals. This allowed them to 'advance' as PCs do. Without the Godtouch, it takes a person 70 years of work to master a single third level spell. Elven non-Godtouched mages might master a 5th level spell over 700 years of effort. However, the Godtouched can rise from nothing to mastery of 9th level spells in the span of a year or two.

When it comes to fighters, barbarians, monks, rogues and other potentially 'mundane' classes, this explanation allows me to treat them more like Captain America - someone that is theoreticlaly mundane, but is so good at what they do that they seem magical. I tend to really play up that these PCs are doing the impossible when they achieve many of their class abilitiy limits.

See, that kind of explanation is exactly the sort of thing I want. I really don't understand why people object to such.

 

[CreamCloud0]

See, that kind of explanation is exactly the sort of thing I want. I really don't understand why people object to such.

cause some people don't like the idea that their character is some sort of special chosen one (edit: sometimes even if everyone is 'special'), it undercuts the meaning and point of 'just an ordinary person' who get where they are through hard work and graft, it could've been anyone standing where they are against gods and monsters but they were the one who put the effort in to be there.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

cause some people don't like the idea that their character is some sort of special chosen one, it undercuts the meaning and point of 'just an ordinary person' who get where they are through hard work and graft, it could've been anyone standing where they are against gods and monsters but they were the one who put the effort in to be there.

Yep. Whilst the "godtouched" might be a good fit for a certain setting and campaign, I definitely wouldn't want it to be the default lore.