D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Retros_x]

You can make D&D what you want. WotC doesn't decide for you unless you let them. Otherwise, what's the point of this thread? No one here's going to convince WotC of anything.

I don't understand the point of this thread. For me its clear how martials are portrayed and if you should think they should be portrayed different you should play a different game or modify DnD so much that it works. But than don't moan if martials feel boring and underpowered compared to magic users. Of course they are if you downgrade them like that.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't understand the point of this thread. For me its clear how martials are portrayed and if you should think they should be portrayed different you should play a different game or modify DnD so much that it works. But than don't moan if martials feel boring and underpowered compared to magic users. Of course they are if you downgrade them like that.

I don't think most of the posts are what this thread was actually about. I think it went off the rails relatively quickly into a debate about rules regarding martials (or arguably fighters). But I think the OP was asking a roleplaying or build question not a rules question.

You can broadly break non-casters into two groups by subclass:

Supernatural non-casters:
All Monks, Echo Knight, Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight (technically a caster), Psi Warrior, Arcane Archer, Ancestral Guardian, Wild Magic, Storm Herald, Beast, Arcane Trickster (technically a caster), Soulknife, Phantom

Mundane non-casters:
Battlemaster, Champion, Purple Dragon, Cavalier, Samaurai, Totem, Battlerager, Zealot, Berserker, Assassin, Inquisitive, Mastermind, Scout, Thief, Swashbuckler

In terms of power the Supernatural non-casters are generally superior to the Mundane non-casters of the same class.

 

[Scribe]

But everyone a few dozen pages back said you don't have to powergame on a martial.

You dont, unless you are leaning into what it was designed for, which is doing damage.

 

[ECMO3]

I've seen almost ever weapon user who isn't a rogue have PAM, GWM, or SS by level 10. Even the warlocks. Even the "noobs".

If I r the DM doesn't adjust feats, these feats are always picked at tables I've been at or heard of.

Monks and Clerics are weapon users and I can not remember either of them ever taking GWM or SS in games I play. I can only remember 1 Cleric taking PAM.

Regardless, even for other classes, I don't see that all the time in games I play. Most players I play with don't take those feats, although some do. to go a little further, I have seen happy GWM players and I have seen happy PAM players, but to be honest I can't remember a single martial who was happy after taking both of those feats. Every player I can remember who took both PAM and GWM and played to high level did not have a whole lot of fun with their characters and regretted it as it locked them into very few weapons and very few options to be effective.

PAM also eats up your bonus action and reaction if you want to get the most use out of the feat and that clashes with a lot of the class and the better subclass features for Fighters, Paladins and Barbarians. This is particularly true for some of the more effective fighter subclasses. Some examples PAM conflicts with: Rage, Paladin Smite Spells, 2nd Wind, Giants Might, Stone rune, Shield, War Magic, Rebuke the Violent, Hunters Mark, Fighting Spirit, Vow of Emnity, Unleash Incarnation, Mark attack and others. It also conflicts with the Bonus Action attack from GWM. People getting this feat often overlook these things in their build and if they do consider it, then it drives them to limited class and subclass options (typically Battlemaster which is not one of the most powerful subclasses).

Finally I note that players playing weapon users in my games have generally enjoyed their characters. If players at your tables don't generally enjoy playing martials maybe it is in part because they are always picking these feats with those characters?

I didn't claim the hill giant is dangerous. Just that it has too many HP too low of a level and martials' damage doesn't increase as fast as monster defenses without powergaming and magic items.

It would seem to me if it doesn't have too many hit points, then the damage from the martials fighting it is not too low.

What am I missing here?

18 prime stat?
But everyone a few dozen pages back said you don't have to powergame on a martial.

I used it as an example for math purposes as it is the "normal" at 5th level. You have to pick a number to actually do the math. If you think it should be something other than 18 at 5th level let me know what that number should be and I will do the math with that number.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think most of the posts are what this thread was actually about. I think it went off the rails relatively quickly into a debate about rules regarding martials (or arguably fighters). But I think the OP was asking a roleplaying or build question not a rules question.

You can broadly break non-casters into two groups by subclass:

Supernatural non-casters:
All Monks, Echo Knight, Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight (technically a caster), Psi Warrior, Arcane Archer, Ancestral Guardian, Wild Magic, Storm Herald, Beast, Arcane Trickster (technically a caster), Soulknife, Phantom

Mundane non-casters:
Battlemaster, Champion, Purple Dragon, Cavalier, Samaurai, Totem, Battlerager, Zealot, Berserker, Assassin, Inquisitive, Mastermind, Scout, Thief, Swashbuckler

In terms of power the Supernatural non-casters are generally superior to the Mundane non-casters of the same class.

Not to argue with your main point, but I think totem/wild heart and zealot both feel more in the supernatural than mundane lists. Which further shows how little design space pure mundane really has.

 

[Minigiant]

You dont, unless you are leaning into what it was designed for, which is doing damage.

Exactly.
Powergame or Magic Items or Supernatural.

Monks and Clerics are weapon users and I can not remember either of them ever taking GWM or SS in games I play. I can only remember 1 Cleric taking PAM.

Monks aren't primarily weapon users. 5e monk weapon uses is a patch.
I'm DMing a game where the Monk die and was replaced by a GWM War Cleric.

It would seem to me if it doesn't have too many hit points, then the damage from the martials fighting it is not too low.

What am I missing here?

I used it as an example for math purposes as it is the "normal" at 5th level. You have to pick a number to actually do the math. If you think it should be something other than 18 at 5th level let me know what that number should be and I will do the math with that number.

That 5th level is where the problem starts. You get almost nothing from then until level 11. While monsters get fatter, harder, and start flying.
Then after 11th, there is another 9 level wait. As everything becomes a spongey video game boss.

Unless you powergame or get magic items.

Not to argue with your main point, but I think totem/wild heart and zealot both feel more in the supernatural than mundane lists. Which further shows how little design space pure mundane really has.

There is design space.
It's just that mundanes that WOTC is okay with aren't sexy.

 

[Scribe]

Exactly.
Powergame or Magic Items or Supernatural.


Monks aren't primarily weapon users. 5e monk weapon uses is a patch.
I'm DMing a game where the Monk die and was replaced by a GWM War Cleric.



That 5th level is where the problem starts. You get almost nothing from then until level 11. While monsters get fatter, harder, and start flying.
Then after 11th, there is another 9 level wait. As everything becomes a spongey video game boss.

Unless you powergame or get magic items.



There is design space.
It's just that mundanes that WOTC is okay with aren't sexy.

I mean if you are trying to convince me that the anemic default of 'we dont grant magical items' is a mistake, I've been there since day 1.

 

[ECMO3]

Not to argue with your main point, but I think totem/wild heart and zealot both feel more in the supernatural than mundane lists. Which further shows how little design space pure mundane really has.

No argument from me. It is a blurry line.

With totem I went back and forth on where it should land and then finally decided on Mundane. Zealot I had clearly on the mundane side, but I have not played one and did not look closely at the abilities, so I am probably wrong.

 

[Minigiant]

I mean if you are trying to convince me that the anemic default of 'we dont grant magical items' is a mistake, I've been there since day 1.

Screwed up the edition for the 10 tables who want 20 levels of Fighters/Rogues vs Orcs LOTR style.

Just shoulda made the Mundane Fighter class with his Flame Tongue and Winged Boots and the Supernatural Paragon/Warblade/Mutant/Demigod class with Boulder Cutting Technique and Super Jumps.

 

[Scribe]

ust shoulda made the Mundane Fighter class with his Flame Tongue and Winged Boots and the Supernatural Paragon/Warblade/Mutant/Demigod class with Boulder Cutting Technique and Super Jumps.

lol yeah thats not it.