D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Maxperson]

Eagle. While raging, you have a flying speed equal to your current walking speed.

Spirits making you physically tough enough to withstand fire, electricity and swords is also supernatural. Spirits allowing you to lift twice as much as the strongest human is not natural. Spirits allowing you to see fine detail a mile away with no difficulty? Not natural!! Gaining the ability to use scents like a wolf is not natural. Being able to pretty much always knock over something that weighs thousands of pounds with no save just because you hit it with a weapon isn't natural, either.

There's lots in that subclass that's supernatural.

 

[Tony Vargas]

We know the definitions of natural and supernatural and communing with spirits and using divine power don't fit the definition of natural at all. You might as well call magic natural at that point.

I think spirits of nature might take exception to being characterized as somehow not natural. Kinda like the Tolkien hobbits thinking of things the elves did as 'magical' while the elves didn't think that way, at all.

(Gods, tho, sure, say The Gods created nature, they're 'above' it, as it's creators - super-natural. And, arcane magic can sure come off as UN-natural.)

I think maybe you're just not using a definition of natural/supernatural that is at all helpful in the context of fantasy. The entire setting could be "supernatural" - contained, for instance, in a crystal sphere, in defiance of the laws of universal gravitation.

 

[Maxperson]

I think spirits of nature might take exception to being characterized as somehow not natural. Kinda like the Tolkien hobbits thinking of things the elves did as 'magical' while the elves didn't think that way, at all.

Spirits of nature are still supernatural. They are the supernatural incarnation of an aspect of nature. Elves were also supernatural in Middle Earth, even if they didn't see themselves that way. Being an elf would feel natural to the elf, but the elf inherent magical powers, despite FEELING natural to the elf, are still supernatural.

I think maybe you're just not using a definition of natural/supernatural that is at all helpful in the context of fantasy. The entire setting could be "supernatural" - contained, for instance, in a crystal sphere, in defiance of the laws of universal gravitation.

That setting would have supernatural aspects. The gravity you mention. However, the normal dirt that is floating around with no gravity would be natural. The humans that live there would be natural. The flowers would be natural. And so on.

What happens if we stretch natural and supernatural away from the real world definitions is that you end up with magic = natural, since magic is an inherent function of a fantasy D&D world. Natural and supernatural are pretty useless as terms at that point.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What happens if we stretch natural and supernatural away from the real world definitions is that you end up with magic = natural, since magic is an inherent function of a fantasy D&D world. Natural and supernatural are pretty useless as terms at that point.

Yes, exactly. The scientific-leaning definition from RL is useless in fantasy, because the whole world may well be supernatural. Trying to build the same sort of definition in the context of a D&D-like fantasy setting where spells are repeatable, testable, phenomena would, conversely, make magic natural, even mundane.

We'd need a definition better suited to the genre. Like, instead of invoking scientific or natural laws, base it on mundane, everyday experience. Even then, it would probably only work if the supernatural were sufficiently rare to avoid being a mundane part of everyday experience - something D&D makes difficult, since anyone, in theory, could acquire a casting class...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Steak is mundane. It's just cooked meat wit salt and pepper. It's still sexy.


This is true.

So perhaps the question should be

"Should martial characters be mundane, realistic, or supernatural?"

Because I think many are thinking mundane = realistic as posters have suggested John Wick as mundane.

It seems obvious to me that “mundane” in this context just means “not magical or supernatural as such”.

So epic feats of skill are mundane, even if they do some wild stuff, but if a thing requires the creation of a magical effect, it isn’t mundane. It just means “martial”, in the 4e “power source” sense.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If we do root the mundane in the everyday, and conceive of the supernatural as deviating from that, then scientifically explainable, but very rare events, like a solar eclipse, meet the definition of supernatural (oh no, a giant serpent is devouring the sun!). Not exactly inappropriate to genre.

IMHO, D&D would benefit from a line like 3e drew between (EX)traoridnary and (SU)supernatural, with the ordinary or mundane a third baseline category. If we consider the mundane to be ordinary, everyday things, that literally anyone can do (if not particularly well) any time, then the extraordinary can be similar things done much, much better, and the supernatural would be things outright impossible.
So, for instance, anyone can hop over a low obstacle or across narrow ditch or the like, a stronger, more agile person could clear greater obstacles - so if you're extraordinarily strong/skilled, you can jump great distances, even beyond what might be scientifically impossible outside a fantasy world. Superhuman feats aren't off the table, if they're what humans do, but more.
But, you can't fly. ( Maybe you could stick feathers to your arms like Daedalus and Icarus, and fly that way, IDK. )

When a huge barbarian leaps over a castle wall, that's extraordinary, he's really strong, he's doing something ordinary people can do (jump) but way more so, because hes way stonger. Close enough for fantasy physics. When the bookish guy in robes casts a Jump spell, OTOH, he may be jumping the same distance, but he does it by chanting and breaking cricket legs, not by flexing huge muscles and taking a running start.

And that's a funny thing about these discussions. Supernatural or magic is often held up as needing to be far more powerful than the mundane to be "really magical," but how you do somethng can make it supernatural, or not.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I guess I am wondering why the fighter in particular has to be supernatural.

It’s not like there are no supernatural warriors. Most tropes are in there somewhere and then some:

The “chosen” Greek hero sort? Oath of glory. Amazing jumping and climbing.

The holy warrior? Paladins in general got you covered. Heck I think blade locks are the Gish if constructed well.

Barbarian have all the spiritual animal totem stuff…

I like that we have the battle master and champion for those other options…

 

[Remathilis]

The problem isn't calling for things that already exist in abundance. The problem is that anything a martial can do that can match mid to high level magic is going to be either supernatural or nonsense. A purely mundane act can only get you so far before it caps out. Mundane cannot rationally match magic/supernatural.

Agreed. The current 5e playtest fighter and rogue have very extraordinary abilities; second wind, action surge, uncanny dodge, evasion. They are as pushed as far as you can without giving them explicitly supernatural abilities.

 

[Minigiant]

the only momentum that is actually real is the scientific/kinematic version of momentum (i.e. an objects mass times its velocity or its moment of inertial times its angular velocity). That would be extremely difficult to implement in an RPG

There is mental momentum as continuous shocks to one's morale can throw people into increasing worse mental states.
Then there are combination attacks.

It seems obvious to me that “mundane” in this context just means “not magical or supernatural as such”.

So epic feats of skill are mundane, even if they do some wild stuff, but if a thing requires the creation of a magical effect, it isn’t mundane. It just means “martial”, in the 4e “power source” sense.

That subdiscussion was on real and scripted combat entertainment.
The question is then.

Are the actions of MMA fighters, professional boxers, WWE wrestlers, and real life action stars mundane, supernatural, or something else.

Because they don't exist in 5e.

 

[ECMO3]

We know the definitions of natural and supernatural and communing with spirits and using divine power don't fit the definition of natural at all. You might as well call magic natural at that point.

I think they do, because IRL Native Americans for example commune with spirits, so do some Christians.

The Spirits themselves are absolutely supernatural. Communing with them in an intangible "spiritual" way; not so much IMO.

Divine Power is a bit tricky. You can find millions of americans that will tell you God did such and such in their lives. A spirit acting to intervene in a mundane fashion is itself not supernatural IMO. That is why a draw a distinction between the Zealot ability Divine Fury which does weapon damage and a similar ability that would do riadiant damage.

Is the divine being really causing the extra damage the Zealot does or does he just think the divine being does and part of that thinking results in the inspiration for him to do it?