D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[I'm A Banana]

They are meant to do different things. Making them do the same things is bad for the game.

I mean, citation needed, but even if we run with your assumption then we encounter only one real solution: to deprive magical characters of things like teleportation, invisibility, wish, meteors, etc. (at least as assumed class elements). Otherwise, one group of players gets that, and the other does not, and we have the divide.

Or, I guess, we hit the current scenario, and live with it as the best possible outcome. But the thread is predicated on the idea that there's a better way to do it than we currently have.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean, citation needed, but even if we run with your assumption then we encounter only one real solution: to deprive magical characters of things like teleportation, invisibility, wish, meteors, etc. (at least as assumed class elements). Otherwise, one group of players gets that, and the other does not, and we have the divide.

Nope. There are literally a dozen suggestions in this thread for making fighters stand alongside Wizards without having them do the same thingns.

As for citations, are you joking? You’re skeptical of the axiomatic notion that two roleplaying game elements with very different conceptual fantasies should do different things?

I’m sorry but that’s such an out there position to take that I feel no obligation to even pretend to kind of take it seriously. It’s farcical.

Or, I guess, we hit the current scenario, and live with it as the best possible outcome. But the thread is predicated on the idea that there's a better way to do it than we currently have.

And the better way does not involve making fighters teleport and summon meteors, nor taking those things out of any class that has them.

Either “solution” is just abject failure. Better to not waste the time and just give up and walk away, except luckily those are not actually the only two options.

 

[Voadam]

Anakin can be the Chosen One and still be as good or better a pilot than Han Solo.

I believe there was a fighter piloting matchup of Han Solo against Darth Vader . . .

More to the point, the party was Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, Ben Kenobi, and Leia (the droids are more toolbox and comedy bickering, so more companion type features). Solo the gunslinging charming rogue is a better pilot than Luke or Ben and a major combatant.

For Anakin his party is mostly in the animated Clone Wars, him, Kenobi, Ahsoka Tano, and Captain Rex and the squad of elite clone troopers. The movies I'd say Anakin's not really part of a party.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, exactly. The scientific-leaning definition from RL is useless in fantasy, because the whole world may well be supernatural. Trying to build the same sort of definition in the context of a D&D-like fantasy setting where spells are repeatable, testable, phenomena would, conversely, make magic natural, even mundane.

We'd need a definition better suited to the genre. Like, instead of invoking scientific or natural laws, base it on mundane, everyday experience. Even then, it would probably only work if the supernatural were sufficiently rare to avoid being a mundane part of everyday experience - something D&D makes difficult, since anyone, in theory, could acquire a casting class...

No. This is not correct. Even here in the real world we(huge numbers) believe in spirits, magic and the supernatural. If the existence of the supernatural makes it natural as you say above with the fantasy world, then the same thing applies here. The existence of spirits and divine miracles would be perfectly natural here in the real world. Except it isn't.

Just as in this world the supernatural(magic, spirits, gods, etc.) exists and is different from the natural(mundane things), the same categories exist in fantasy worlds and explicitly in D&D.

We do not need a different definition, because the same one works perfectly well. If it's natural here, it's natural there. If it's supernatural here, it's supernatural there.

 

[CreamCloud0]

More to the point, the party was Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, Ben Kenobi, and Leia (the droids are more toolbox and comedy bickering, so more companion type features).

C-3P0 and R2-D2 really out here being the support NPCs who's main purpose is to know comprehend languages and have thieves tools proficiency(or hacking given the future setting).

 

[Remathilis]

I believe there was a fighter piloting matchup of Han Solo against Darth Vader . . .

More to the point, the party was Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, Ben Kenobi, and Leia (the droids are more toolbox and comedy bickering, so more companion type features). Solo the gunslinging charming rogue is a better pilot than Luke or Ben and a major combatant.

For Anakin his party is mostly in the animated Clone Wars, him, Kenobi, Ahsoka Tano, and Captain Rex and the squad of elite clone troopers. The movies I'd say Anakin's not really part of a party.

Han got the sneak attack while Vader was distracted by Luke (who was also an excellent pilot.)

But all the protagonists (Anakin , Luke, Rey) were excellent pilots, gifted in the Force, and talented warriors. They may be a match in the first movie of their respective trilogies, but come the second and third they are so OP they have to be on separate "Jedi" missions away from their allies. The closest thing to some sort of balanced group is Anakin, Obiwan, and Ashoka, but that's because they were all Jedi.

Which loops me back to my point. You get partiality when every character has special abilities of some kind. Harry Potter, for all its warts, made all three protagonists equal in that they were wizards. They didn't stick a muggle on the team and tried to make them useful. D&D needs to do the same and realize that adventuring isn't for muggles and hotshot smugglers, it's for wizards and Jedi.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Han got the sneak attack while Vader was distracted by Luke (who was also an excellent pilot.)

But all the protagonists (Anakin , Luke, Rey) were excellent pilots, gifted in the Force, and talented warriors. They may be a match in the first movie of their respective trilogies, but come the second and third they are so OP they have to be on separate "Jedi" missions away from their allies. The closest thing to some sort of balanced group is Anakin, Obiwan, and Ashoka, but that's because they were all Jedi.

Which loops me back to my point. You get partiality when every character has special abilities of some kind. Harry Potter, for all its warts, made all three protagonists equal in that they were wizards. They didn't stick a muggle on the team and tried to make them useful. D&D needs to do the same and realize that adventuring isn't for muggles and hotshot smugglers, it's for wizards and Jedi.

Or not. It would be relatively easy to balance out spellcasters if you really wanted to. Here, I'll show you. Two changes.

1. No cantrips. Every spell requires a slot, period. That way, martials really are not just better in combat, but a LOT better in combat. It also means that the utility cantrips also require those precious resources. Spellcasters still get the "Gee, whiz!" spells, but they requires resources and planning.

2. All spells go last in the round, and any caster hit during a round doesn't get the spell off. I know! That would massively balance the game. Sure you could tinker with this a little. You could have casters get a save (with disadvantage if there's a lot of damage, etc.). Or you could have a select group of spells that don't make you go last (like the "Power Word" spells). Tinker at the edges. But it would again mean that spellcasting is a specific choice in combat.

Would this radically reshape the game as we know it? Yes. Would a lot of people be howling? Certainly.

Would it restore balance in the Force? I think so.

 

[Minigiant]

Han got the sneak attack while Vader was distracted by Luke (who was also an excellent pilot.)

But all the protagonists (Anakin , Luke, Rey) were excellent pilots, gifted in the Force, and talented warriors. They may be a match in the first movie of their respective trilogies, but come the second and third they are so OP they have to be on separate "Jedi" missions away from their allies. The closest thing to some sort of balanced group is Anakin, Obiwan, and Ashoka, but that's because they were all Jedi.

Which loops me back to my point. You get partiality when every character has special abilities of some kind. Harry Potter, for all its warts, made all three protagonists equal in that they were wizards. They didn't stick a muggle on the team and tried to make them useful. D&D needs to do the same and realize that adventuring isn't for muggles and hotshot smugglers, it's for wizards and Jedi.

Or it can let the muggles excell at muggle stuff in ways a wizard or Jedi can replicate with the same time and XP.

Or have muggle only equipment.

 

[Remathilis]

Or it can let the muggles excell at muggle stuff in ways a wizard or Jedi can replicate with the same time and XP.

Or have muggle only equipment.

Name one thing, be it in D&D, Star Wars, or Harry Potter, that the mundane character can do that the magical one cannot. One thing. Or perhaps a piece of equipment that is unusable to magical characters. They don't exist in any meaningful way. Wizards can drive cars. A Jedi can wear beskar. A bladesinger is a match for a warrior in a duel.

This is the problem, magical characters aren't forced to just be magical because they are locked out of mundane abilities. Even in D&D there is a martial equivalent for each caster class. The reverse is never true until you give the mundanes magical abilities, be it spells, supernatural powers, or magic items.

You want partiality in D&D? Start by removing any spell that replaces or enhances combat prowess or skill use. Invisibility, charm person, shield, etc. Make it so a wizard can't rival a rogue in skill use because he has spent so much time in a book that he can't do much else. No, they instead give wizard expertise like the rogue has and wonder why wizards are so OP...

 

[Minigiant]

Name one thing, be it in D&D, Star Wars, or Harry Potter, that the mundane character can do that the magical one cannot. One thing. Or perhaps a piece of equipment that is unusable to magical characters. They don't exist in any meaningful way. Wizards can drive cars. A Jedi can wear beskar. A bladesinger is a match for a warrior in a duel.

This is the problem, magical characters aren't forced to just be magical because they are locked out of mundane abilities. Even in D&D there is a martial equivalent for each caster class. The reverse is never true until you give the mundanes magical abilities, be it spells, supernatural powers, or magic items.

You want partiality in D&D? Start by removing any spell that replaces or enhances combat prowess or skill use. Invisibility, charm person, shield, etc. Make it so a wizard can't rival a rogue in skill use because he has spent so much time in a book that he can't do much else. No, they instead give wizard expertise like the rogue has and wonder why wizards are so OP...

Read the Dresden files.

The wizards and vampires are powerful but hire mundanes to do all the shooting and sneaking.