D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Micah Sweet]

I disagree: they also gave up on modern concepts. D&D has mainly just been drawing inspiration from 70s D&D the whole time. (I'd've said 80s D&D, since those were the fad years, but 80s D&D was already just in the rut of being 70s D&D, heck, 1e AD&D's 3 core books were all written at the end of 70s)
70s D&D drew heavily from mythology as well as then-modern sources, like pulp-era science fiction & horror and REH & JRRT and their imitators.

I said WotC, not D&D. You know I treat those two things very differently.

 

[Remathilis]

How do you figure? Just because people in the real world can't cast spells because magic doesn't exist, it doesn't follow that a first level wizard could come up with the theory of relativity. There's nothing anywhere that I can think of that even hints at that..

Spells, at least how D&D presents them, are complex theorems that when performed correctly alter reality. They don't need general relativity because they laugh at it and create matter and energy in their hands.

Because D&D characters aren't based on real world characters, they're based on fictional (modern, not mythic) heroes. In most iterations of James Bond, the things Bond does are in the realm of what a human could do not just one human. Fighters in D&D are action movie heroes..

Correct. However, D&D fighters are James Bond trying to fight Thanos. He's in the wrong movie. He's hopelessly outclassed.

They aren't Superman, but relatively low power superheroes? Daredevil, Black Panther, even Captain America? Sure. But the thing about those superheroes is that they still more-or-less have to follow the laws of physics as we know them. That to me is the biggest difference, they may be faster, stronger, more skilled but given enough speed, strength or skill what they do could still be achieved. Which is what I want out of my D&D fighter. Unless I don't, in which case I have plenty of options.

Again, he might be Batman, but he's not matching the power of Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash or Green Lantern without a lot of tech (magic items) and plot armor. The problem is that neither of those things are guaranteed or always feasible, making Batman a guy in a Halloween costume amongst Gods.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Mundane - Normal, realistic, possible in reality to some degree.

Extraordinary - Peak, limits of humanity, or skill that appears outside the bounds on possible. Feats of Strength, Dexterity, Math. There are examples here in reality.

Supernatural - Spirit, Myth, Power of Nature. The Divine.

Magic - "Weave", the fabric of reality that can be unwoven, tugged at, changed, or channeled.

Any issues with those definitions?

IMO extraordinary is mundane in this context, and supernatural and magic aren’t distinct either.

Beyond that, yeah.

And even if he could, it would be wrong, because teleportation exists.

Just incomplete, at worst.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I said WotC, not D&D. You know I treat those two things very differently.

WotC only relatively briefly (2 years seems pretty brief) took it's eye off the old-D&D ball.
D&D runs on tradition, WotC has learned to conform to that, or else. The roots of that tradition, perhaps ironically, are in wargaming and include inspiration from myth, folklore, and history.

 

[Micah Sweet]

WotC only relatively briefly (2 years seems pretty brief) took it's eye of the old-D&D ball.
D&D runs on tradition, WotC has learned to conform to that, or else. The roots of that tradition, perhaps ironically, are in wargaming and include inspiration from myth, folklore, and history.

Then I suppose you must believe that WotC is heading for "or else" pretty quick then?

And WotC certainly took their eye off the old school ball in 2008.

 

[Tony Vargas]

First off lets stop talking about balance because that is a completely separate discussion IMO. We should be able to discuss what is needed in individual classes without muddying the waters with balance.

This discussion only exists as an adjunct to the discussions about the martial/caster gap.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then I suppose you must believe that WotC is heading for "or else" pretty quick then?

Not even a little bit. They learned their lesson like, 15 years ago. It's all tradition, all the way to the bank, from 2014 on. Maybe not some of the specific aspects of those traditions that you or I appreciate from the 1e era (and we don't appreciate all the same things, either), but, the broad-strokes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not even a little bit. They learned their lesson like, 15 years ago. It's all tradition, all the way to the bank, from 2014 on. Maybe not some of the specific aspects of those traditions that you or I appreciate from the 1e era (and we don't appreciate all the same things, either), but, the broad-strokes.

You said they took the eye off the ball a couple years ago.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You said they took the eye off the ball a couple years ago.

for two years, not two years ago, I thought you even caught on when you mentioned 2008

 

[Micah Sweet]

for two years, not two years ago, I thought you even caught on when you mentioned 2008

What do you mean by tradition they're keeping to then? Just the name of various concepts in the rules and the lore? Because modern D&D is in many ways fundamentally different than it was back in the TSR days.