D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Minigiant]

To clarify you said martials, but are you really asking about martials or are you asking about non-casters or are you asking about fighters or some other combination of classes?

To me the martials are fighter, rogue, and barbarian.

But in 2024, barbarian won't be martial as it will be more powered by primal, arcane, or divine depending on subclass.

I am not sure what you mean exactly by top of himan ability, but I think if we want a certain dynamic that puts PCs above and beyond what the rules currently allow, that should be captured in a subclass and I would be ok with a subclass for fighters or wizards or any other class that did that. I do not think that kind of thing should be a part of the core class mechanics as I think many players don't want that in the class. They have a different idea of what they want to play when they select a class

That's the thing to me that blocks me.

At the very least, a martial character HAS TO become an extraordinary person at Tier 3.

There are no martial character who gets past level 11 without either

1) Becoming Extraordinary
Or
2) The DM playing favorites with rewards or status

No matter what subclass the player takes, if it is balanced it or the core class becomes extraordinary. And being extraordinary requires new rules.

Even the basic Champion is Extraordinary.

A martial subclass that does not add new takes on the rules or new rules to remain not extraordinary is underpowered.

An underpowered person who performs on par without dumb luck is being cheated for or cheating.

 

[Maxperson]

Mundane - Normal, realistic, possible in reality to some degree.

Extraordinary - Peak, limits of humanity, or skill that appears outside the bounds on possible. Feats of Strength, Dexterity, Math. There are examples here in reality.

Supernatural - Spirit, Myth, Power of Nature. The Divine.

Magic - "Weave", the fabric of reality that can be unwoven, tugged at, changed, or channeled.

Any issues with those definitions?

I don't really have an issue with it singled out, but magic is really just another category of supernatural.

 

[ECMO3]

To me the martials are fighter, rogue, and barbarian.

But in 2024, barbarian won't be martial as it will be more powered by primal, arcane, or divine depending on subclass.



That's the thing to be.

At the very least, a martial character HAS TO become an extraordinary person at Tier 3.

There are no martial character who gets past level 11 without either

1) Becoming Extraordinary
Or
2) The DM playing favorites with rewards or status

No matter what subclass the player takes, if it is balanced it or the core class becomes extraordinary. And being extraordinary requires new rules.

Even the basic Champion is Extraordinary.

A martial subclass that does not add new takes on the rules or new rules to remain not extraordinary is underpowered.

An underpowered person who performs on par without dumb luck is being cheated for or cheating.

So there is a lot here to unpack here.

First off lets stop talking about balance because that is a completely separate discussion IMO. We should be able to discuss what is needed in individual classes without muddying the waters with balance. If fighters need something to be in story, then they need it regardless of balance. I think striving for balace destroys thematics and while that may be a worthwhile discussion, it has no place in this discussion I don't think.

So putting balance aside, I think some of the extraordinary things people ask about require new rules to accomplish but most don't.

For example above you mention Hulk Hogan, Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt and Jackie Chan.

Of those 4:

Most of what Hulk Hogan and Jackie Chan do is already doable by any character RAW. Maybe there is something I am missing and if so I am all ears. A subclass that makes those things easier or more viable as options is fine, but if you can already do it, why do we need new rules to do it?

Michael Phelps exploits in the pool can already be topped at relatively low level by Barbarians, Rogues, Rangers and Monks using only class abilities, and fighters can come close. Those classes can also do this while hauling 100lbs of gear or so.

Very high level Monks are comparable to Usain Bolt in speed. No other classes are on class attributes alone. I think this is an ideal area for a subclass that enables Usain Bolt-like speed. However I don't think new rules are needed for this, all that is needed is a movement boost and that could come with a subclass easily. Make dash a Bonus action and then boost movement speed at your subclass levels and you are there. As an aside this will make the character much faster than Phelps in the pool.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't really have an issue with it singled out, but magic is really just another category of supernatural.

Magic to me is just a subcategory of supernatural.

D&D just lumps them everything as magic. But other games and genre have additional subcategories like alien or meta or super science.

Superman in DC comics is alien or super science. Transport Clark to a D&D setting and he becomes magic. Either because D&D suns are magic or alien powers are all magic (or psionic).

Crap. Now I have to write a psionic Lesser Kryptonian fighter subclass.

 

[Scribe]

Acting is fake and in terms of combat it is not mundane. But it also is not supernatural. Hulk Hogan actually did all those thing in the ring, he actually did pick up Andre the Giant and body slam him.

If he had cut Andre the Giant down with a light sabre, that would have been supernatural.

The Undertaker rose from the dead, many times. Sounds pretty supernatural if it was 'real'.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Mundane is normal.

Normal relative to the world.

So if the world is good instead of just 'like Earth but wizards and also we don't understand the prowess of actual athletes', mundane doesn't have to be boring.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Magic to me is just a subcategory of supernatural.

D&D just lumps them everything as magic. But other games and genre have additional subcategories like alien or meta or super science.

Superman in DC comics is alien or super science. Transport Clark to a D&D setting and he becomes magic. Either because D&D suns are magic or alien powers are all magic (or psionic).

Crap. Now I have to write a psionic Lesser Kryptonian fighter subclass.

Only in 5e. Previous editions --like all of them -- understood that 'magic' isn't the only power source.

 

[Oofta]

The Undertaker rose from the dead, many times. Sounds pretty supernatural if it was 'real'.

That just makes him a charlatan, not supernatural.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

In the classic Sword&Sorcery literature the fighters need a lot of effort, courage and sacrifice to face spellcasters. If warriors could jump over the roofs like in "Tiger and Dragon" then it would be wuxia fiction.

 

[Minigiant]

In the classic Sword&Sorcery literature the fighters need a lot of effort, courage and sacrifice to face spellcasters. If warriors could jump over the roofs like in "Tiger and Dragon" then it would be wuxia fiction.

But in Sword and Sorcery spellcasters were feeble wimps who drop if a stiff breeze bypassed their arcane wards.