D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Micah Sweet]

So, simply saying, "no" doesn't make the other guy wrong. OTOH, resting your argument on something that simply isn't true, does make you wrong.
There are beliefs about the supernatural IRL. But, while the beliefs exist, the supernatural does not. The definition of supernatural you want to use is based upon the non-existence of the supernatural, making it useless in a setting where magic and other such forces actually exist.

Obviously it doesn't work at all, or we wouldn't have these discussions.
The scientific-leaning definition from RL is useless in fantasy, because the whole world may well be supernatural. Trying to build the same sort of definition in the context of a D&D-like fantasy setting where spells are repeatable, testable, phenomena would, conversely, make magic natural, even mundane.

We'd need a definition better suited to the genre. Like, instead of invoking scientific or natural laws, base it on mundane, everyday experience. Even then, it would probably only work if the supernatural were sufficiently rare to avoid being a mundane part of everyday experience - something D&D makes difficult, since anyone, in theory, could acquire a casting class...

If we were to root the mundane in the everyday, and conceive of the supernatural as deviating from that, then scientifically explainable, but very rare events, like a solar eclipse, meet the definition of supernatural (oh no, a giant serpent is devouring the sun!). Not exactly inappropriate to genre.

IMHO, D&D would benefit from a line like 3e drew between (EX)traoridnary and (SU)supernatural, with the ordinary or mundane a third baseline category. If we consider the mundane to be ordinary, everyday things, that literally anyone can do (if not particularly well) any time, then the extraordinary can be similar things done much, much better, and the supernatural would be things outright impossible.
So, for instance, anyone can hop over a low obstacle or across narrow ditch or the like, a stronger, more agile person could clear greater obstacles - so if you're extraordinarily strong/skilled, you can jump great distances, even beyond what might be scientifically impossible outside a fantasy world. Superhuman feats aren't off the table, if they're what humans do, but more.
But, you can't fly. ( Maybe you could stick feathers to your arms like Daedalus and Icarus, and fly that way, IDK. )

When a huge barbarian leaps over a castle wall, that's extraordinary, he's really strong, he's doing something ordinary people can do (jump) but way more so, because hes way stonger. Close enough for fantasy physics. When the bookish guy in robes casts a Jump spell, OTOH, he may be jumping the same distance, but he does it by chanting and breaking cricket legs, not by flexing huge muscles and taking a running start.

And that's a funny thing about these discussions. Supernatural or magic is often held up as needing to be far more powerful than the mundane to be "really magical," but how you do something can make it supernatural, or not.

And yet, here we are in the RL, where @Maxperson 's explanation of the supernatural has actual resonance with actual people who need it. Yours. On the other hand requires looking at the setting in a specific way that might not apply to a common experience.

 

[Tony Vargas]

And yet, here we are in the RL, where @Maxperson 's explanation of the supernatural has actual resonance with actual people who need it. Yours. On the other hand requires looking at the setting in a specific way that might not apply to a common experience.

Yes, it would mean delving deeper into the fantasy world and the lives, experiences, and mindsets of its imagined inhabitants.

 

[Scribe]

Mundane - Normal, realistic, possible in reality to some degree.

Extraordinary - Peak, limits of humanity, or skill that appears outside the bounds on possible. Feats of Strength, Dexterity, Math. There are examples here in reality.

Supernatural - Spirit, Myth, Power of Nature. The Divine.

Magic - "Weave", the fabric of reality that can be unwoven, tugged at, changed, or channeled.

Any issues with those definitions?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, it would mean delving deeper into the fantasy world and the lives, experiences, and mindsets of its imagined inhabitants.

Is that helpful, from a practical "PC creation and other game rules" perspective in this instance? Because that is what appears people are calling for here.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Is that helpful, from a practical "PC creation and other game rules" perspective in this instance? Because that is what appears people are calling for here.

Yes. You can't very well create characters without any idea of the world they're from.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes. You can't very well create characters without any idea of the world they're from.

But my point is that whether or not something is considered supernatural or not is subject to the mindset of the people in that setting. Unless the game you are designing for is mono-setting, that definition is going to vary. On the other hand, most folks I think understand a working definition of supernatural as "not possible (or at least not currently provable) in the real world". As you say, if magic is natural than the world supernatural has no real meaning, rendering this entire line of discussion moot.

 

[Scribe]

These would be 'extraordinary' feats.

Warning, on the first one as he gets pretty messed up by this lift.

Yes, this guy gets a boost. I still would say the number of folks able to do this, is comically small without years of training/conditioning.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But my point is that whether or not something is considered supernatural or not is subject to the mindset of the people in that setting. Unless the game you are designing for is mono-setting, that definition is going to vary. On the other hand, most folks I think understand a working definition of supernatural as "not possible (or at least not currently provable) in the real world". As you say, if magic is natural than the world supernatural has no real meaning, rendering this entire line of discussion moot.

It only leads the scientifically-grounded definition being useless.

A definition based in the fantasy world is needed, the definition of mundane, BTW, still easily applies....

found in the ordinary course of events · everyday, quotidian, routine, unremarkable, workaday ; concerned with the world or worldly matters.
very ordinary and therefore not interesting

Now, thinking about the meaning of "mundane," well, the question asked by the thread is really rather obvious, isn't it - no PC class can be mundane, leave that to the 3.5 Commoner PC Class.

But, aside from that, if mundane contrasts supernatural, that gives us a handy test. If it's mundane, it can't be supernatural, so, for magic, for instance, to stay supernatural, it must be kept out of the realm of everyday humdrum existence in the setting.

Which, getting back to your first point, while D&D has been used for many settings, they're setting with mostly the same races, and classes, and monsters and magic items, and basically all the same spells. So the distinctions among mundane, extraordinary, superhuman, magic, and supernatural can remain pretty consistent from one to another. Unless a world is some high-magic, everyone uses prestidigitation to brush their teeth kinda thing....

 

[Voadam]

When a huge barbarian leaps over a castle wall, that's extraordinary, he's really strong, he's doing something ordinary people can do (jump) but way more so, because hes way stonger. Close enough for fantasy physics.

I don't agree it is close enough for fantasy physics.

Just because the Hulk's powers are only being strong and tough, aspects that normal humans have in lesser degrees, does not make his super feats of strength and toughness mundane.

The Hulk can jump over walls because he is powered strong. You don't really expect any non-powered really strong human to be able to do the same thing on their own outside of wire fu. Wire Fu jumps cannot jump across islands in the Pacific the way the Hulk can. Ascendant divine or demonic Monkey from Asian folklore/mythology sometimes can.

Heracles the son of Zeus can dig up and redirect a riverbed through his own physical efforts in a day. Odysseus son of two mortals cannot. Both are heroes, one is a supernatural demigod while one is a mundane mortal warrior hero.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Just because the Hulk's powers are only being strong and tough, aspects that normal humans have in lesser degrees, does not make his super feats of strength and toughness mundane.

It does not make him mundane, no, he's no part of the humdrum everyday life of ordinary people in any setting (there's probably been a 'Hulk World' Marvel What-If, or something, hasn't there?), but it doesn't make him supernatural, either, thus something in between. Superhuman or, for less extreme examples like raging barbarians, 3.5's (EX)traordinary...

Weirdly, if you consider comic-book science-fiction sciencey enough, the Hulk wouldn't be supernatural by the conventional definition.