D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Remathilis]

Mundane - Normal, realistic, possible in reality to some degree.

Extraordinary - Peak, limits of humanity, or skill that appears outside the bounds on possible. Feats of Strength, Dexterity, Math. There are examples here in reality.

Supernatural - Spirit, Myth, Power of Nature. The Divine.

Magic - "Weave", the fabric of reality that can be unwoven, tugged at, changed, or channeled.

Any issues with those definitions?

Even simpler:

Mundane is stuff that exists in the real world, with typical assumptions of biology, chemistry and physics. You and I and all realistic fiction exists here.

Extraordinary is stuff that borders on the edge of reality, either by being extremely unlikely or outright impossible, but still gives the appearance of existing within a world of mundane reality. Action moves street level superheroes and hard sci-fi exist here.

Supernatural is when things outright break the rules of reality, but in ways that aren't well explained or handwaved. An owlbear or a dragon cannot exist biologically, zombies can't exist, and time travel is theoretically impossible. Superheroes, horror movies, and most sci-fi exist here.

Magical assumes a world where the supernatural is explained by its own internal rules and may or may not be accepted as existing. The Force is a known effect with specific rules. The wizarding world exists even if muggles don't know in it. D&D magic is so common it's a buyable commodity.

I think the separation lines aren't based on sources but by how far it deviates from reality.

 

[Oofta]

From dictionary.com Supernatural: "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal."

I think we can only discuss this from a perspective of our world. If we don't, the words lose meaning. I assume people accept that ghosts are supernatural, but in D&D they exist so are natural for those worlds. Along the same lines, someone leaping over tall buildings (or castle walls) in a single bound is still supernatural. It doesn't matter how that ability is justified, whether it's "a martial ability" or because you're an alien with superpowers. It's still supernatural.

I agree that some things are borderline between obviously supernatural and not, if we want to call that extraordinary it makes sense. Some things are just baked into D&D 5E for everyone that's not specific to any one class, like recovery of HP after a long rest. Some other things, like being perfectly okay until you're unconscious are just gaming artifacts, things done for simplicity and making the game more enjoyable.

 

[Voadam]

It does not make him mundane, no, he's no part of the humdrum everyday life of ordinary people in any setting (there's probably been a 'Hulk World' Marvel What-If, or something, hasn't there?), but it doesn't make him supernatural, either, thus something in between. Superhuman or, for less extreme examples like raging barbarians, 3.5's (EX)traordinary...

Weirdly, if you consider comic-book science-fiction sciencey enough, the Hulk wouldn't be supernatural by the conventional definition.

For superhero contexts normally there are distinctions between powered ones and non-powered ones instead of supernatural and not. Super tough super strong Superman being an alien whose natural physiology is powered by the yellow sun's nuclear reactions is not considered in a significantly different category from divinely powered super strong super tough Wonder Woman. The significant distinction I would say is with non-powered Batman and Green Arrow.

I am taking mundane here to basically mean non-powered human hero.

 

[Minigiant]

One of the reasons why I like the Dresdenverse is how it explain how the nonmagical stay in places of power among the magical.

Basically the inhuman, the humans who have minor or trained magical gifts need to focus their training on their magic thal they lack time to gain the upper levels of experience.

A wizard, warlock, sorcerer, or werewolf is too busing researching and training their craft to study normie skills even if they could.

And the truly magical are monsters. Too monstrous, weird, warped, or prideful to train mundane.

The best weapon users, thieves, hackers, diplomats, are all humans (or planetouched or infected humans).

That's were D&D gets weird. D&D says that mundane marshal characters exist but doesn't let them truly get to the pinnacle of their crafts. Instead they cap out very early than the real world and turn to magic equipment too fast.

 

[ECMO3]

So there something between mundane and supernatural?

I don't even think these are talking about the same thing. It is like saying there is something between smoke and oranges.

Mundane is normal. Supernatural is unatural, unreal. Nothing supernatural actually exists in the real world, but supernatural can be in abundance in the game world.

In a high fantasy, high magic world (like Halrua in the Forgotten Realms) low level magics are both mundane and supernatural. The Prestidigition spell for example is supernatural and in such a setting mundane.

Potions of healing, also supernatural, and available in every adventuring store and thereby mundane (at least for those with the gold to purchase them). Smokepowder in Ferun is supernatural, becuase it is specifically magic, While on another world gunpower, which does the exact same thing functionally, is not supernatural. Depending on your specific campaign and the rarity of firearms either of these things could be mundane or not mundane.

If you are saying you want a supernatural martial then you are saying you want something like the Rune Knight, Echo Knight or Psi Warrior - something well outside the bounds of the natural world, with little or no regard for physics, whether or not those "supernatural" elements and abilities are powerful. Other subclasses also have supernatural elements but these are the three most obvious for the fighter.

 

[ECMO3]

Combat Sport, is mundane. Acting, is fake.

Acting is fake and in terms of combat it is not mundane. But it also is not supernatural. Hulk Hogan actually did all those thing in the ring, he actually did pick up Andre the Giant and body slam him.

If he had cut Andre the Giant down with a light sabre, that would have been supernatural.

 

[ECMO3]

I believe there was a fighter piloting matchup of Han Solo against Darth Vader . . .

More to the point, the party was Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, Ben Kenobi, and Leia (the droids are more toolbox and comedy bickering, so more companion type features). Solo the gunslinging charming rogue is a better pilot than Luke or Ben and a major combatant.

Ok some things can get a pass and some things are just blasphemy.

C2PO was clearly the face (3 million of communication) and R2D2 was an artificer. They are more than just toolboxes!
J/K

 

[Minigiant]

I don't even think these are talking about the same thing. It is like saying there is something between smoke and oranges.

Mundane is normal. Supernatural is unatural, unreal. Nothing supernatural actually exists in the real world, but supernatural can be in abundance in the game world

But what about Olympic or World Championship level skill?

Are Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt, Hulk Hogan, Lebron James, Patrick Mahomes, Jackie Chan, or Dwayne Johnson mundane?

Are martials normal level or top of human ability? If yes, Should martials have additional rule for their top level skill?

 

[ECMO3]

But what about Olympic or World Championship level skill?

Extraordinary but not supernatural.

Are Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt, Hulk Hogan, Lebron James, Patrick Mahomes, Jackie Chan, or Dwayne Johnson mundane?

None of them are Mundane as far as their real or filmed athletic exploits.

With the exception of the Rock none of them are supernatural in any of their exploits I am aware of.

Rock falls in both camps as far as supernatural depending on what movie. Jumping from one building to another in a car in Fast and Furious is not supernatural at all. Some of his things in Jumangi and Jungle Cruise are supernatural.

Are martials normal level or top of human ability? If yes, Should martials have additional rule for their top level skill?

To clarify you said martials, but are you really asking about martials or are you asking about non-casters or are you asking about fighters or some other combination of classes?

I am not sure what you mean exactly by top of himan ability, but I think if we want a certain dynamic that puts PCs above and beyond what the rules currently allow, that should be captured in a subclass and I would be ok with a subclass for fighters or wizards or any other class that did that.

I do not think that kind of thing should be a part of the core class mechanics as I think many players don't want that in the class. They have a different idea of what they want to play when they select a class. I think putting it in a subclass (or subclasses) satisfies everyone, putting it there for those that want it and offering other alternatives for those that don't.

Finally I would say everything I have personally seen Jackie Chan or Hulk Hogan do is already allowed under the rules.

Michael Phelps best 50m freestyle is 23.04s. Any 5E character with a 30 foot move can do this in 30s. A 2nd level fighter can do it in 27s. A 5th level Barbarian can do it in 22.5s. A 2nd level Rogue can do it in 20s, a 6th level Rangercan do it in 15s and a 10th level Monk can do it in 12s. The comparison with his other records are similar. So I think we are already kind of there with MP.

Monks in tier 5 can match Usain Bolt. Other characters cant.

The other real athletes on your list not so much, but they are not really engaging in combat either..

 

[Maxperson]

So, simply saying, "no" doesn't make the other guy wrong. OTOH, resting your argument on something that simply isn't true, does make you wrong.
There are beliefs about the supernatural IRL. But, while the beliefs exist, the supernatural does not. The definition of supernatural you want to use is based upon the non-existence of the supernatural, making it useless in a setting where magic and other such forces actually exist.

Simply saying no doesn't make me wrong according to you, so you simply saying the supernatural does not exist doesn't make me wrong or you right.

It's great how that works!

You might want to think twice before you declare all religions and beliefs in the supernatural to be false by the way. The offense level of that is pretty high.

Obviously it doesn't work at all, or we wouldn't have these discussions.

Nah. It just doesn't work for you since apparently you are all knowing and know for absolute fact that there is no supernatural that exists. How nice for you to be so confident that you know better than the vast majority of the world.