D&D 5E Should non-fighters get maneuvers and expertise dice?

[Sword of Spirit]

Should the system of expertise dice and maneuvers be expanded to classes beyond fighter (rogue and monk currently) or should they be an exclusive class feature of fighters?

1. Yes. Every class (martially-oriented or not) should use expertise dice in some form.
2. Yes. All martially oriented classes should use expertise dice.
3. Maybe. Perhaps some other classes should have it, but not every martially-oriented class.
4. No. Perhaps other classes can have a similar system, but expertise and maneuvers are meant for fighters alone.
5. No. The entire concept is what makes the fighter distinctive and unique and shouldn’t be shared with any other class.

 

[MortalPlague]

I won't vote yet. My initial inclination is to have them only for fighters. But I'm about to start a 5th Edition campaign tomorrow, so we will see if Monk and Rogue having them is good or not.

 

[steeldragons]

How 'bout this...

Expertise Dice are to Non-caster classes
as
Spells are to Caster classes.

Then....

Maneuvers are to Fighters
as
Schemes are to Rogues
as
Domains are to Clerics
as
Traditions are to Mages
as
Styles (? Let's call 'em Styles for now.) are to Monks
as
Pacts are to Warlocks
as
[who knows what are] to Druids
as
etc...etc...etc...

That work for folks?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Classes aren't defined by having a specific unique mechanic.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

That work for folks?

Works for me. I'd even like to see some classes, like the Paladin, get both Expertise Dice and Spellcasting (in lesser amounts than either a full caster or a non-caster).

 

[GX.Sigma]

I think Expertise is a good mechanic for lots of classes to have, because it's pretty versatile, has built-in scalability, and can be used for cross-class things (imagine a magic item that gives you an extra 1d4 expertise die). I would be okay with every non-spellcasting class using Expertise Dice.

The thing is, they should use it in different ways. The Fighter has a big ol' list of combat maneuvers, and can choose any ones he wants every few levels. Should that be how the Monk uses Expertise? Sure! Should that be how the Barbarian uses Expertise? Maybe. Should that be how the Rogue uses expertise? Heck no!

It's also an issue of presentation. Having Deadly Strike as a maneuver feels weird. I think something simpler would be better, like "You have an expertise die, a d4, that you can use once per round. You can use it to add to your attack damage, or you can spend it to do other things based on your fighting style. You regain this die at the end of your turn."

I'd even like to see some classes, like the Paladin, get both Expertise Dice and Spellcasting (in lesser amounts than either a full caster or a non-caster).

That's where I start to have an issue with it. If the Paladin can use expertise dice like the Fighter and cast spells like the Cleric, then what the hell is the difference between a Paladin and a Fighter/Cleric?

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I think Expertise is a good mechanic for lots of classes to have, because it's pretty versatile, has built-in scalability, and can be used for cross-class things (imagine a magic item that gives you an extra 1d4 expertise die). I would be okay with every non-spellcasting class using Expertise Dice.

The "built-in scalability" is actually what makes me the most nervous about applying this mechanic across classes. We've already seen how tempting it is to apply it broadly in a way that (IMHO) dilutes class diversity. (Want to incorporate a Sneak Attack ability? Add your expertise dice, but only from flanking/advantage! Want Flurry of Blows? Add your expertise dice, but roll more attacks! Want Smite? Add your expertise dice against evil stuff! And so on.) I'd much rather they take that damage level as an internal development baseline and come up with DIFFERENT mechanics that achieve more or less the same level of damage without utilizing the same dice.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Want to incorporate a Sneak Attack ability? Add your expertise dice, but only from flanking/advantage! Want Flurry of Blows? Add your expertise dice, but roll more attacks! Want Smite? Add your expertise dice against evil stuff! And so on.

I don't think this is a bad thing. It's better than "Want Flurry of Blows? Here's a bunch of complicated rules you have to remember and an entire advancement table you need to keep track of!"

 

[mlund]

Expertise Dice are a nice mechanic for classes that have little or no alternative sources of power outside of their martial expertise and a heavy emphasis on physical training. This is why the Rogue, Fighter, and Monk all match up very well with the Expertise system.

Once you start channeling divine, natural, psionic, or arcane energy you've got a distinct character niche that should separate you from the Expertise system. On top of that, there's only so much diversification you can really do under Expertise and still keep up with balance and distinctiveness.

The Ranger could probably adopt the Expertise system if he wasn't designed to do any whacky spell-casting (AD&D, 3E) or primal-force-channeling / form-changing (4E Warden) type stuff. Still, I worry he's too much like a Fighter sub-class to stand alone under those circumstances.

The Berserker ("Barbarian" is such a misnomer) probably can't use the Expertise system and still remain distinct enough from the Fighter to be a stand-alone class. So the Rage-based mechanics probably need to live independently of Expertise.

The Paladin is Faith-fueled. Again, if he were using the Expertise System he'd either be an unbalanced super-fighter, an awkward Fighter/Cleric, or someone too indistinct from a Fighter that happened to find religion in his background and specialties.

I think the only other PHB Classes I could really see using the Expertise system properly would be the Warlord and the Assassin, but I think both of them would make better Fighter and Rogue sub-classes / builds / styles than anything else.

- Marty Lund

 

[Crowsion]

If the Paladin can use expertise dice like the Fighter and cast spells like the Cleric, then what the hell is the difference between a Paladin and a Fighter/Cleric?

I see what you mean, a Paladin is mostly a blend of fighter and cleric, but i would say that the difference is that a fighter/cleric gets maneuvers, proficiencies, spells per day, and domain spells. While a paladin could have a smite mechanic in place of spells per day.