D&D General Should players be aware of their own high and low rolls?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In both cases the result is failure in this example.
@GMforPowergamers is correct. The result isn't what makes them the same or different. The process is. With one the task is impossible and there's no roll. With the other the PC had a chance of success and maybe even a very good chance of success and simply did poorly. They are very different even if the result is the same.
The DM is tasked with determining for all action declarations if a check of some kind is appropriate. This is just the normal process of play. Sometimes things fail outright. Sometimes they have an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure so the DM calls for a roll.
This is true, though the bolded being from the DMG is just a guideline and not a rule.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Whenever I point out seeing people posting about how the DM has UNLIMITED POWER and going way too far with it, they demand I catalog every single instance in triplicate, double spaced, front and back and notarized before they believe me, so I'm collecting receipts.
Well hopefully you see that my quote is in the context of discussing an approach to the game I do not use nor approve of, and any subsequent reposting of the same will include that context.
 



iserith

Magic Wordsmith
@GMforPowergamers is correct. The result isn't what makes them the same or different. The process is. With one the task is impossible and there's no roll. With the other the PC had a chance of success and maybe even a very good chance of success and simply did poorly. They are very different even if the result is the same.
The process is the same though - the DM always determines if a roll is appropriate because they determine whether the task succeeds, fails, or has uncertainty as to the outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure.
This is true, though the bolded being from the DMG is just a guideline and not a rule.
"If it supports my argument, it's a rule. If it does not support my argument, it's just a guideline."
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Whenever I point out seeing people posting about how the DM has UNLIMITED POWER and going way too far with it, they demand I catalog every single instance in triplicate, double spaced, front and back and notarized before they believe me, so I'm collecting receipts.

Show me one post where somebody asked for you to notarize your evidence.

(That was a joke.)

Edit: although, maybe there’s a point: I tend to see people asking for examples when the claims about other posters are hyperbolic.
 





Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The process is the same though - the DM always determines if a roll is appropriate because they determine whether the task succeeds, fails, or has uncertainty as to the outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure.
No. A PORTION of the process is the same. Rolling, having a chance for sucess/failure, and determining the result of the die roll are a part of the process(and a much more significant portion) that is not present in, "You fail because it's impossible."
"If it supports my argument, it's a rule. If it does not support my argument, it's just a guideline."
Everything in the DMG, including the metagaming portion, is a guideline. Those guidelines become rules if the DM enacts them. The only exceptions are the optional rules that replace rules in the PHB. I've said it before and will say it again.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
No. A PORTION of the process is the same. Rolling, having a chance for sucess/failure, and determining the result of the die roll are a part of the process(and a much more significant portion) that is not present in, "You fail because it's impossible."
I'm not sure what you mean. The DM determines if there's a roll or not as the step after the player describes what they want to do. Everything follows from there.

Everything in the DMG, including the metagaming portion, is a guideline. Those guidelines become rules if the DM enacts them. The only exceptions are the optional rules that replace rules in the PHB. I've said it before and will say it again.
Certainly there are parts that are called out as optional including the section on table rules which includes a couple paragraphs on "metagame thinking." That a task needs a meaningful consequence for failure for there to be a check isn't presented that way.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm not sure what you mean. The DM determines if there's a roll or not as the step after the player describes what they want to do. Everything follows from there.
Process 1
1. Player declares an action.
2. DM assesses whether the chances of success are auto failure, auto success or uncertain, and if using the guideline from the DMG, whether failure will have meaning.
3. DM determines auto success.
4. PC succeeds.
5. DM narrates outcome.

Process 2
1. Player declares an action.
2. DM assesses whether the chances of success are auto failure, auto success or uncertain, and if using the guideline from the DMG, whether failure will have meaning.
3. DM determines auto failure.
4. PC fails.
5. DM narrates outcome.

Process 3
1. Player declares an action.
2. DM assesses whether the chances of success are auto failure, auto success or uncertain, and if using the guideline from the DMG, whether failure will have meaning.
3. DM determines outcome uncertain(and if necessary that failure has meaning).
4. DM determines DC.
5. Player has the option to use things that might influence the roll(portent, guidance, etc.)
6. Player rolls.
7. DM determines from the roll whether success or failure happens.
8. DM narrates outcome.

Process 3 is very different from the first 2.
Certainly there are parts that are called out as optional including the section on table rules which includes a couple paragraphs on "metagame thinking." That a task needs a meaningful consequence for failure for there to be a check isn't presented that way.
Page 4 of the DMG.

"This book has two important companions: the Player's Handbook, which contains the rules your players need to create characters and the rules you need to run the game, and the Monster Manual, which contains ready-touse monsters to populate your D&D world."

The PHB contains the rules to make characters and run the game. If you look throughout the DMG, the chapters are constantly saying, "The guidelines that follow..." or "The guidelines in this chapter..." or "The guidelines in chapters, 2, 4 and 5..."

The DMG is all guidelines. The rules are in the PHB.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Process 1
1. Player declares an action.
2. DM assesses whether the chances of success are auto failure, auto success or uncertain, and if using the guideline from the DMG, whether failure will have meaning.
3. DM determines auto success.
4. PC succeeds.
5. DM narrates outcome.

Process 2
1. Player declares an action.
2. DM assesses whether the chances of success are auto failure, auto success or uncertain, and if using the guideline from the DMG, whether failure will have meaning.
3. DM determines auto failure.
4. PC fails.
5. DM narrates outcome.

Process 3
1. Player declares an action.
2. DM assesses whether the chances of success are auto failure, auto success or uncertain, and if using the guideline from the DMG, whether failure will have meaning.
3. DM determines outcome uncertain(and if necessary that failure has meaning).
4. DM determines DC.
5. Player has the option to use things that might influence the roll(portent, guidance, etc.)
6. Player rolls.
7. DM determines from the roll whether success or failure happens.
8. DM narrates outcome.

Process 3 is very different from the first 2.
Perhaps I've lost the thread of where this tangent originated, but the process from the DM's perspective is the same. That the player may have some additional resources they can throw at the roll, if there is one, doesn't really change that. It starts with the DM determining success, failure, or uncertainty and all of those calls are the DM's.

Page 4 of the DMG.

"This book has two important companions: the Player's Handbook, which contains the rules your players need to create characters and the rules you need to run the game, and the Monster Manual, which contains ready-touse monsters to populate your D&D world."

The PHB contains the rules to make characters and run the game. If you look throughout the DMG, the chapters are constantly saying, "The guidelines that follow..." or "The guidelines in this chapter..." or "The guidelines in chapters, 2, 4 and 5..."

The DMG is all guidelines. The rules are in the PHB.
The words "rule" and "guideline" are used interchangeably throughout the text, with some rules and some guidelines being called out as optional and others not called out that way. But we've been down this road before and there's no need to relitigate it here.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The words "rule" and "guideline" are used interchangeably throughout the text, with some rules and some guidelines being called out as optional and others not called out that way. But we've been down this road before and there's no need to relitigate it here.
They are not used interchangeably in the DMG. When the word rules is used, it's just talking about rules and says nothing about the DMG being rules. When it talks about guidelines, it explicitly calls out all the chapters in the DMG as guidelines at various points.

The rules are by RAW the PHB, and the guidelines are by guideline(since it's the DMG that says it) in the DMG.

Oh, and the one place the PHB says guidelines it says this,

"The Dungeon Master's Guide is the ultimate tome of DM lore. It includes magic items, optional rules, and guidelines for creating everything from a simple dungeon to an entire cosmos for your campaign."

At no point does the PHB say the DMG has rules. It has magic items, OPTIONAL rules and guidelines.
 

"The Dungeon Master's Guide is the ultimate tome of DM lore. It includes magic items, optional rules, and guidelines for creating everything from a simple dungeon to an entire cosmos for your campaign."

At no point does the PHB say the DMG has rules. It has magic items, OPTIONAL rules and guidelines.
in theory you can run D&D with the PHB and Monster Manual... this is why people joke about not reading the DMG
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
They are not used interchangeably in the DMG. When the word rules is used, it's just talking about rules and says nothing about the DMG being rules. When it talks about guidelines, it explicitly calls out all the chapters in the DMG as guidelines at various points.

The rules are by RAW the PHB, and the guidelines are by guideline(since it's the DMG that says it) in the DMG.

Oh, and the one place the PHB says guidelines it says this,

"The Dungeon Master's Guide is the ultimate tome of DM lore. It includes magic items, optional rules, and guidelines for creating everything from a simple dungeon to an entire cosmos for your campaign."

At no point does the PHB say the DMG has rules. It has magic items, OPTIONAL rules and guidelines.
Again, we've been down this road before and there's no need to relitigate it here. We simply disagree and there will be no resolution.
 


Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I once had a computer science student who mystified me. She was an incredibly talented dancer: I'm no expert but from my perspective she danced as well, at 16 years old, as any professional I had seen. And I suspect there's some connection between that and the fact that her brain just worked in ways that were completely alien to me. I would try to step her through what to me was clear, concise, and elegant logic, and her conclusions were just...completely inexplicable.

I do not think she was dumb. At all. It's just that her genius was so unlike my own way of thinking that I couldn't understand her. I imagine that she was taking her domain of expertise, dance, and somehow translating those principles to computer code. Her programs almost never worked, but her explanations of her thought process were fascinating. I'm not sure how much programming she actually went away with, but I learned a ton from her.

Sometimes in these debates I think about her. (It helps me avoid beating my head against the wall.)
 


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