D&D General Should players be aware of their own high and low rolls?

[overgeeked]

Yeah, those things can often be pretty much the same.

Worst I've ever had was a ten-member party got split ten ways by a wild magic effect teleporting each of them to a random place within the rather big dungeon they'd been exploring.

I stopped the session at that point and sorted it all via copious amounts of email during the week, during which I had little chits on the map telling me where each one was. By the start of the following session I think something like eight of them had reunited, we then roleplayed them looking for the other two (one was asleep thus easy to figure, the other was trapped and had to be rescued).

The fog of war can be great fun at times.

 

[Maxperson]

Trying to prevent metagaming is fruitless, because every decision a player makes is influenced by their own knowledge.

This is a False Equivalence. If a player is being unconsciously influenced, that's not metagaming. Metagaming requires a conscious decision to bring in that OOC knowledge. A player cannot accidentally metagame.

All you can really do is prohibit certain actions on the grounds that you think the character wouldn’t make them, and/or take steps to prevent the players from ever gaining information their characters wouldn’t have.

Or just prohibit metagaming.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Yup. I believe I pointed out the tendency toward hyperbole (to be charitable) a couple pages back.

Very charitable.

 

[Maxperson]

It's a "gotcha" if there was no way to figure it out or avoid it beforehand. Telegraphing mitigates the perception of a "gotcha" even if the telegraphing was dismissed as unimportant by the players or forgotten. If a player can reexamine the setup and realize they missed that clue, then they don't tend to declare it a "gotcha." In that specific situation, several of the players picked up on the telegraphing I laid down and understood the troll was different than normal, but the wizard's player did not and the result was the situation became more difficult and an NPC was killed.

It takes more than being an unknown factor to be a "gotcha." If you're watching an adventure movie and tangential to the main story a maid murders someone and you don't find out until it's revealed by a main character, that's not a gotcha. If however you are watching a murder mystery and the entire point of the movie is to figure out who killed Mr. Body and it's revealed without any clues(telegraphing)that the maid did it, THAT would be a gotcha.

In your example, the difference in the troll would be a main issue if the PCs/players(since you allow metagaming) know about how to kill trolls. It's a change that has a serious impact(It's like being the main point of the movie), so telegraphing would be appropriate. Traps on the other hand are generally not the point of the adventure or dungeon, so not telegraphing one is not going to be a gotcha.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Their farts alone are a good reason.

There's no way you would know that!!!

You might draw the conclusion I didn't agree with most of those reasons. You'd be right. There's a sharply limited reason to open up lines, and all of them have to do with mobility until area effects come along.

Right, but my point was not to offer "realistic" tactics so much as several options that would seem reasonable upon seeing a dragon, which don't rely on meta knowledge. I was showing that there are ways to make the fiction match the play.

I think that's something that is an obstacle in these conversations. Some folks are not willing to do that... to find ways to make things work.

 

[iserith]

It takes more than being an unknown factor to be a "gotcha." If you're watching an adventure movie and tangential to the main story a maid murders someone and you don't find out until it's revealed by a main character, that's not a gotcha. If however you are watching a murder mystery and the entire point of the movie is to figure out who killed Mr. Body and it's revealed without any clues(telegraphing)that the maid did it, THAT would be a gotcha.

In your example, the difference in the troll would be a main issue if the PCs/players(since you allow metagaming) know about how to kill trolls. It's a change that has a serious impact(It's like being the main point of the movie), so telegraphing would be appropriate. Traps on the other hand are generally not the point of the adventure or dungeon, so not telegraphing one is not going to be a gotcha.

I would say that a trap that is not telegraphed is definitely a "gotcha" in a D&D context.

 

[Maxperson]

I would say that a trap that is not telegraphed is definitely a "gotcha" in a D&D context.

A death trap, sure. The kind where if you get caught you end up trapped and dead. Water filling room, etc. Normal arrow traps, pits, lightning bolts, etc. are not gotchas. The party should be alert to traps in the first place and be looking for them in spots where traps are likely.

 

[iserith]

A death trap, sure. The kind where if you get caught you end up trapped and dead. Water filling room, etc. Normal arrow traps, pits, lightning bolts, etc. are not gotchas. The party should be alert to traps in the first place and be looking for them in spots where traps are likely.

I make no distinction on what kind of trap. I telegraph them all.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I make no distinction on what kind of trap. I telegraph them all.

perhaps and example would help... how would you forshadow a non deadly trap?

 

[iserith]

perhaps and example would help... how would you forshadow a non deadly trap?

I mean, we're pretty far off-topic with this tangent. I also think introducing examples in these discussions usually just gives people something new to fight over instead of illuminating any particular point or offering a useful approach. If you're interested, I believe I have posted several traps over the years on here and discussions ensued about how to present them (and if you care to do battle with the forum search feature).