Should players know minions are minions from a rules/tactics PoV?

In many cases, there's something obviously different about the minion, in which case I describe whatever's different, and let the players figure it out.

But if it's a minion that has no reason to look different than its fellows, I'm not going to artificially create differences for the PCs to spot.

It's entirely a question of what the PCs can see in character, IMO.
 

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shadewest

First Post
I'm not one for flat out saying it, but if i put over a dozen minis on the board, the players ought to figure that some of them are going to be minions. I like to keep them guessing, but since about 50% of all the oponnents i use are minions anyway, it's not like the PCs don't get a chance to be badass. It shouldn't take long before the players figure out that the bigger, or better dressed, of different species monsters are the ones to worry about. I actually try to have a skirmisher or soldier in the mix for every four minions or so, identically described, to keep them from getting too overconfident. If things start to go bad, these "sergeants" will start giving orders to give themselves away.

One thing I won't do is use monsters that only appear as minions. Legion devils were a bad idea. Athough, if i give one in four the fighter class template, and one in 10 the warlord template, things get interesting.
 

LokiDR

First Post
As an example from last night, one player was really pushing for the information. As a DM, my game is make the game fun and no one there didn't want to know so I made it clear. They also had the skills and experience with this particular kobold tribe to have that information. With a more story/description focused group, no one would have gone fishing in that way. I think this is a play style issue more than a rules question.
 

dragonier

Community Supporter
In many cases, there's something obviously different about the minion, in which case I describe whatever's different, and let the players figure it out.

But if it's a minion that has no reason to look different than its fellows, I'm not going to artificially create differences for the PCs to spot.

It's entirely a question of what the PCs can see in character, IMO.

I couldn't agree more. There are no capital "M"s stamped on the foreheads of minions. Tell me how likely it is that in the midst of chaotic combat with a veritable swarm of undead or goblins or kobolds that the heroes will be able to pick out with precision which of their opponents are minions or not.

I had the privilege to DM 4e demos on both D&D Day and Free RPG day. When the PCs were facing a large group of kobolds, the minion ability to only take damage from an actual hit came into play more than once. There were a number of times where there were powers used that caused small amounts of damage even on a miss. Minions of course are immune to that damage. One kobold in particular was on the receiving end of such a miss twice before finally getting struck for 18 points of damage. Really, unless there is some very compelling reason to let the players look behind the curtain, I prefer to let situations like that speak for themselves. As far as the players know, they took out a kobold with 3 attacks and did a total of 24 points of damage to him.
 


Spiral

First Post
I always thought it would be fun to have a certain percentage of minions drop on the second hit rather than the first. Not alot, but enough to keep people guessing. Roll a d10 whenever one gets hit--on a 1, it's still standing.
 


Switchback

First Post
I think some are getting confused by Minions new higher attack attack and defense values into thinking they are simply doubles of other creature types that for the sake of fun gaming, are given 1 HP and said to die in some grisly one-shot heroic blow from heroes. That is not the idea. Minions, as described in the original excerpt about them, are actually replacing the traditional mooks or lower level creatures that a DM would throw at parties, but who would be routinely ignored because their stats didn't scale. Minions in 4e were originally going to get a small number of HP even to represent their weaker nature, but the bookkeeping this brought back in made this pointless.

If a group of monsters had a giant royal rumble outside the concern of a party, minions would not abstract into having normal HP and possibly killing other brutes, soldiers, or leaders. They would die and be wiped out every time just like they do in a battle vs players. Because regardless of 1 HP being a small abstraction, they are still meant to be the weakest fodder troops in the mook role and should in most cases be identifiable as such. They are weaker in both threat and appearance, just like they were back when a DM was throwing 20 level 2 Ghouls into a fray as filler in a battle against Wights, Mummies, or some more powerful challenge. But because Minions can now come from the same races as an even level challenge, some people are confused as to what they represent, or that a party would somehow be unable to tell these vastly weaker creatures apart from more powerful ones.

That would be akin to making those 20 Ghouls used in 2E or 3E as fodder, look exactly like the Vampire Lord who is the real boss of the encounter. Which would of course be folly and destructive to the coherence of the game in many ways. The fact that Minions now in 4e might be Vampires as well, does not mean they are indistinguishable. Got to stop looking at non-descript miniatures and use some imagination. The Vampire Lord probably looks like this guy, while his Minion’s look more like this. :D

I think the game gains absolutely nothing by trying to purposely create role confusion of Minions amid combat. It actually dilutes the tactical nature of the system if anything. I don't ever recall in 2e or 3e thinking that a combat against 6 Ogres would be made so much better if a bunch more equally offensive Ogres were mixed in but who only had 1 HP, with the player's not knowing which were which. 4e says now we have some 'Ogre Thugs' you can use, but who are probably less armored, equipped, smaller and weaker looking and who few will confuse with the bigger nastier brutes who dominate the clan and are the real threat to players.

What Skills could a Character use to Identify which Enemies are Minions?

Monster Knowledge checks (Nature, Arcana, Dungeoneering, etc) as per the PHB, should yield their Name, Type and Keywords on a DC 15. Assuming at least one player is trained in the relevant skill, this is going to be a gimmie in most cases. If combat is getting dragged down every encounter by rolling a lot of these formality skill checks, a DM might consider the value of just pointing them out as a matter of course, except where there is some reason to expect the players are unfamiliar with the foes and enforce the rolls.
 
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