Should players know minions are minions from a rules/tactics PoV?

I think the game gains absolutely nothing by trying to purposely create role confusion of Minions amid combat. It actually dilutes the tactical nature of the system if anything.

I think the game is MUCH more enjoyable as a player if I am not spoon fed by the DM and told all kinds of extra metagame information about the monsters (like its role) that my PC should not have.

Where is the fun and challenge in that? Might as well be playing City of Villains with the little Minion nametag above the creatures name. zzzzzzz


A role is a encounter design game mechanic. It is not a PC observable quality. What is observable is that the monster is casting spells or using a bow or whatever. That does not make the monster a controller or artillery. It means that the monster is casting a spell or using a bow.

Monster Knowledge checks (Nature, Arcana, Dungeoneering, etc) as per the PHB, should yield their Name, Type and Keywords on a DC 15. Assuming at least one player is trained in the relevant skill, this is going to be a gimmie in most cases. If combat is getting dragged down every encounter by rolling a lot of these formality skill checks, a DM might consider the value of just pointing them out as a matter of course, except where there is some reason to expect the players are unfamiliar with the foes and enforce the rolls.

Type is not what you are implying that it means.

Type includes: animate, beast, humanoid, and magical beast.

The OP is asking about Minion Role. There is no knowledge check for roles, nor should there be.

An extremely generous DM might say "Oh, that a Kobold Minion" when giving its name, but I consider that bogus. He should not say "Kobold Minion" or "Kobold Skirmisher", he should say "Kobold". Those extra tags are for the DM, not for the PCs.

Also, the DC increases for Paragon Tier monsters +5 and Epic Tier Monsters +10.


Sorry people, according to the rules, the Monster Check does not give the PC knowledge about the monster role. That is an encounter design element, not an observable monster quality.
 

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I think the game is MUCH more enjoyable as a player if I am not spoon fed by the DM and told all kinds of extra metagame information about the monsters (like its role) that my PC should not have.

Naturally, if it makes the game more fun for you or your group, go for it. To me that means not having a combat decided on whether the defender was able to head off the real threats or mistook the minions for brutes and allowed his squishies to get hacked up because he either guessed wrong, or rolled badly.

The idea of Minions themselves are wildly abstract and meta-gamey to begin with. So much so that it forces them to either be acknowledged by all or else risk randomly screwing over the players for doing nothing wrong. In no other editions do I recall such a dynamic where the strength of commonly encountered creatures (Ogres, Kobolds, Orcs) could be so wildly misjudged by experienced players to the point that a encounter could be turned on it, because the players had no idea how to tactically attack the battle.

The implications of not knowing whether several common creatures have 1 HP or 30-100+ is vast on the battlefield. I don't see how anyone cannot recognize this. It is not a meta-game type cheat to be able to recognize the difference between these vastly different threats. It's not like asking which Orc has 22 starting HP vs 26. Advocating disguising basic creatures HD or level might be interesting in rare cases, but practically every battle? That is borderline silly.

The concept of the Minion is pretty clear stated as being a replacement for mooks or filler creatures in a encounter. I don't know many people that ran mooks and attempted to confuse them with the more powerful creatures in the encounter. So why they would look identical or be confused with the much more powerful Brutes and Soldiers of their kind does not make sense. If they looked like Brutes to the players they would probably be Brutes.

The developers obviously understood these concerns and the suggestion by Mike Mearls is well noted.

I asked this very question to Mike Mearls at Origins this weekend. His answer was that yes, the minions should be made obvious to the players. For instance you could describe them as goblins wearing ragged leathers and wielding rusty old short swords. Cheap or worthless equipment is the hallmark of minions. You can also make them obvious by having the commanders order them around like the minions they are.
 
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Naturally, if it makes the game more fun for you or your group, go for it. To me that means not having a combat decided on whether the defender was able to head off the real threats or mistook the minions for brutes and allowed his squishies to get hacked up because he either guessed wrong, or rolled badly.

Do you really think that combats are decided upon that?

Or, it is just a rationalization for you POV?

As an example, Defenses are not information that Monster Skill Checks supply. Do you think that Defense information (i.e. which Defense is weakest) should be given to all Wizards, just so that he doesn't guess wrong?

I really don't understand your POV here. Why would you want the DM to tell you "Hey guys, these are the ones the Wizard should do Scorching Burst on."?

Sure, the DM has to give information to the players, but come on. If he is going to the level of explicitly telling players monster roles (or even strongly hinting at them), he might as well play the game for the players.

The idea of Minion's themselves are wildly abstract and meta-gamey to begin with. So much so that it forces them to either be acknowledged by all or else risk randomly screwing over the players for doing nothing wrong.

How so? Because a player might use an Encounter or Daily power on a minion?

Maybe that player should try an At-Will power on opponents first and not be so gung ho on using his big guns right away.

Bad player decisions should not be blamed on them not knowing metagaming information. Bad player decisions are merely that, bad player decisions.

Do you tell the players exactly how to solve a riddle, just so that they will not make a mistake?

The concept of the Minion is pretty clear stated as being a replacement for mooks or filler creatures in a encounter. I don't know many people that ran mooks and attempted to confuse them with the more powerful creatures in the encounter. So why they would look identical or be confused with the much more powerful Brutes and Soldiers of their kind does not make sense. If they looked like Brutes to the players they would probably be Brutes.

The DMG appears to disagree with this assessment.

Page 54

TIPS FROM THE PROS

Some encounters make it easy to single out targets for particularly deadly attacks. They have identifiable leaders or significant threats that make great targets for daily powers or concentrated damage from the party's strikers. Others consist of similar creatures, with no obvious leader. Include a mix of both kinds of encounters in your adventures. The two kinds of encounters appeal to different kinds of classes - strikers like clear-target encounters, while controllers love mobs - and encourage different tactics.

Nothing in the role section or the Monster Skill Checks rules indicates that the DM should tell the players what the monster roles are.

It does indicate that sometimes, players should know who the Leaders are, but Leader is not a role. Leader is a quality that can apply to any role except minion. But, that does not mean that the non-leaders in such are group are minions or are known as minions (they could be soldiers or skirmishers or something else). Knowing one does not mean knowing the inverse.

Sure, a Brute looks tough. He might be a leader in a group.

But, Halfling Stouts have the same armor and better weapons than Halfling Thieves. Why should you tell the players that the Stouts are the Minions and the Thieves are the Skirmishers?

On the other hand, some minions like Decrepit Skeletons do have observable clues that they might be more fragile. That's ok as long as it is part of the normal monster description.

The developers obviously understood these concerns and the suggestion by Mike Mearls is well noted.

Argumentum Ad Verecundiam


Then why did Mike not put this suggestion into the rules? It's a fairly obvious question that has come up in many people's games practically right away.

Role is not something that is discernable by Monster Skill Checks, so its fairly obvious that the designers probably did not want that metagaming knowledge to be freely distributed early combat to players. "That guy over this is using a Bow, he might be artillery". Nothing wrong with a player figuring that out on his own. But, from actual non-metagaming information supplied.

The excerpt link you provided above says nothing about letting players know which monsters are minions and which are not. The rules says nothing about it. The rules, on the other hand, talk about allowing players information on type, keyword, resistances, etc. with monster skill checks.

The DMG indicates that some encounters should have groups of creatures with no obvious leaders.

So, what we have disagrees with your assertions here. This appears to be a game style preference on your part so that players don't make mistakes in combat. But, the text does not support your POV as being the designer's preference.
 

Then why did Mike not put this suggestion into the rules? It's a fairly obvious question that has come up in many people's games practically right away.

That's a good question. Why didn't he? And why did he choose to answer the way he did to the question? Perhaps because with many more playtests having occurred post release, the importance of identifying minions has become apparent.

But I find it strange you are arguing against a lead developer's interpretation of a mechanic that no one else would have ever thought to even ask for (minions) had the designers not thought it up for this specific edition. I.e saying to them, "This is a neat idea, but you’re doing it wrong." :erm:

I don't see a reasoning for it beyond just liking the idea of making things tougher for the players. If that is the goal then add in a few more minions, or a few more regular creatures or whatever. But don't make players endlessly guess at where to direct the brunt of their resources. Especially when the idea of players being able to rely on certain knowledge about monsters is a D&D mainstay.

Minions are not meant to be treated as if common monsters are suddenly casting Mirror Images of themselves all over the place that simply vanish when hit by a player. Which is what the, 'I like mystery' opinion argues for.

Another reason why it is not pointed out in the PHB might be because it should be obvious. A Kobold Dragonshield looks different from a Kobold Skirmisher because it is different. In power, gear, abilities, appearance, and experience value. Both of those are different again from a Wyrmpriest. A Kobold Minion is yet again, different from all the above, for the same various reasons. There is no more reason to confuse the Skirmisher and Dragonshield as there is to confuse either of those with a Minion.
 

That's a good question. Why didn't he? And why did he choose to answer the way he did to the question? Perhaps because with many more playtests having occurred post release, the importance of identifying minions has become apparent.

Our DM has not identified them to us at all and it has not been important at all. That importance is only in the mind of some people.

But I find it strange you are arguing against a lead developer's interpretation of a mechanic that no one else would have ever thought to even ask for (minions) had the designers not thought it up for this specific edition. I.e saying to them, "This is a neat idea, but you’re doing it wrong." :erm:

I don't see a link from you where Mike said this. I do know that Jason said practically the opposite in the DMG.

In either case, Designer Argumentum Ad Verecundiam does not hold a lot of weight compared to the actual written rules in a Rules Forum.

The OP asked about the rules on this.

What you are talking about is play style opinion, not rules. The rules do not support your POV.

I don't see a reasoning for it beyond just liking the idea of making things tougher for the players. If that is the goal then add in a few more minions, or a few more regular creatures or whatever. But don't make players endlessly guess at where to direct the brunt of their resources. Especially when the idea of players being able to rely on certain knowledge about monsters is a D&D mainstay.

Semantics. You say that I am making it tougher. I say that you are spoon feeding your players.

Obviously, it's a matter of play style and has nothing to really do with designer intent, rules, or even encounter balance. The only designer intent you have is some statement from Mike for which you haven't yet posted a link.

But, that is not a designer rule intent. It's a designer play style intent.

Minions are not meant to be treated as if common monsters are suddenly casting Mirror Images of themselves all over the place that simply vanish when hit by a player. Which is what the, 'I like mystery' opinion argues for.

It argues for no such thing. You made that up out of whole cloth.

Another reason why it is not pointed out in the PHB might be because it should be obvious.

Obvious to you because of your play style.

The opposite is obvious to me. The Halfing Stout has a better weapon than the Halfling Thief, but in the game, I still have no idea if either is a minion.


The point you appear to be missing is that a Minion is merely an encounter monster role. A game mechanic, not a precise observable trait of a monster. And, minions can be tough. They just fall easy. 4 Minions will kick the snot out of most any same level low level PC Cleric for example. They might not win, but they can do some serious damage.


But until a Minion actually falls, how does one know it was a minion? Couldn't a DM put cloaks on all of his kobolds so that it's hard to tell what they look like?

This is starting to sound like a "player entitlement" discussion. But, player's are only entitled to monster specific information (outside of what they can actually see) with a successful Monster Skill Check. That's the rule. This minion stuff of yours is not a rule. It's a play style preference.

Role is not something the knowledge rules supply to the players. That's the rule, regardless of Mike's new opinion.

I'm not arguing against Mike as you claim, I am arguing for what the rules state.
 

I always thought it would be fun to have a certain percentage of minions drop on the second hit rather than the first. Not alot, but enough to keep people guessing. Roll a d10 whenever one gets hit--on a 1, it's still standing.

The "all of these guys do the same damage" part will give it away regardless.

New Role house rule for you. Tough Minion: If the damage is even, the minion falls. If it is odd, the minion does not fall (randomly switch up even or odd result from encounter to encounter). If it gets hit 3 times, it falls regardless of odd or even damage. If it gets hit twice and does not fall, it is bloodied. Tough Minions have twice the XP of normal minions. Tough Minions also roll weapon damage.
 

The OP asked about the rules on this.

Obviously the rules are in question. Especially if another dev suggested the opposite of what Mearls said.

What you are talking about is play style opinion, not rules. The rules do not support your POV.
Yes they do.

If you want to break the discussion down only to that, then rolling for the name of the creature with the DC monster check is obviously going to reveal them point black. Monsters names are clearly labeled, they are not 'tags', are not in parenthesis or any other sub-line to indicate their full name would not be revealed. Consult Page 4 of the Monster Manual for absolute clarity on Monster Names. A Wyrmpriests name is not 'Kobold' it is Kobold Wyrmpriest. Likewise, Kobold Minion, Kobold Skishmisher, etc. The MM does not leave any doubt.

Roles are very important in 4e, they are one of the foundations of the whole combat system. To not give the player's monster names is about as silly as pretending the monsters cannot tell the humans apart, as to which is the fighter, wizard, or paladin.

But until a Minion actually falls, how does one know it was a minion?
By its weapons, armor, other equipment, or even their condition. By its clothes, ornaments, physical appearance. By whether it is giving orders or taking them. By its disposition (scared, confident, shaky, etc). There are any number of ways which identifying can make combat more interesting in fun. "The 6 Kobolds near the cliff look runty and hesitant, and are carrying rust marked spears." In other cases, it might not be worth the bother and simply let the players roll and say, "Those 6 are Kobold Minions."

couldn't a DM put cloaks on all of his kobolds so that it's hard to tell what they look like?
Sure. That's fine. If it happens every encounter I would find it awfully lame though. The impression I get from the Minion concept is that they are the lowest, weakest, shock troops of a type, and you are supposed to in general be able to recognize that without massive subterfuge on the part of the DM to hide it.

it's a matter of play style
I agree with you there actually, notwithstanding the clarity of the name issue. Posting back and forth endless rules minutia interpretation to prove one is 'right' is not usually productive. I wanted to broaden the discussion for those like the OP, so they can see the implications behind a mechanic that is really no more than trying to trick the players into not knowing close to the real value of the threats they might be facing. Which would be a vast departure from previous editions of the game - at least where common critters are concerned.
 
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Yes they do.

If you want to break the discussion down only to that, then rolling for the name of the creature with the DC monster check is obviously going to reveal them point black. Monsters names are clearly labeled, they are not 'tags', are not in parenthesis or any other sub-line to indicate their full name would not be revealed. Consult Page 4 of the Monster Manual for absolute clarity on Monster Names. A Wyrmpriests name is not 'Kobold' it is Kobold Wyrmpriest. Likewise, Kobold Minion, Kobold Skishmisher, etc. The MM does not leave any doubt.

Yes, for a few of the monsters that the designers were lazy naming.

For the vast majority of monsters (including most minions), the MM does not have the name of the role in the name of the monster.

For minions, only 2 out of 39 in the MM have the word Minion in the name. Some have names like Grunt that sound like minions, but many others do not.

This is hardly a good rules argument.

Roles are very important in 4e, they are one of the foundations of the whole combat system. To not give the player's this info is about as silly as pretending the monsters cannot tell the humans apart, as to which is the fighter, wizard, or paladin.

Silly? What is silly is giving players game mechanics info and pretending it is something they should know.

Role is a mechanic. Monster role is a encounter design mechanic.

Your POV appears to be "mechanic description" oriented.

The Kobold has a bow. Bottom line. Is he artillery or is he a kobold with a bow?

To the PCs, he's a kobold with a bow.

By its weapons, armor, other equipment, or even their condition. By its clothes, ornaments, physical appearance. By whether it is giving orders or taking them. By its disposition (scared, confident, shaky, etc). There are any number of ways which identifying can make combat more interesting in fun. "The 6 Kobolds near the cliff look runty and hesitant, and are carrying rust marked spears." In other cases, it might not be worth the bother and simply let the players roll and say, "Those 6 are Kobold Minions."

Giving the former information is fine. Giving the latter is lame. It still doesn't mean that the cowering kobolds are minions. They might just be cowering kobolds. They might be slingers who are cowering because they are not good at melee and the party is approaching.

Minion is PURELY a game mechanic term. As such, it should never be given in a monster description. Just like Brute should not be. It's a Minotaur with a Battle Axe. Is that a Brute, or is that a Minion.

Answer: Neither. It's a Soldier. But, the players should only know that it's a Minotaur with a Battle Axe and some other minor info depending on Monster Check result.

I agree with you there actually, notwithstanding the clarity of the name issue. Posting back and forth endless rules minutia interpretation to prove one is 'right' is not usually productive. I wanted to broaden the discussion for those like the OP, so they can see the implications behind a mechanic that is really no more than trying to trick the players into not knowing close to the real value of the threats they might be facing. Which would be a vast departure from previous editions of the game - at least where common critters are concerned.

So, it is not ok to try to prove oneself 'right', but it is ok to state that the other POV is trying to trick the players. Hmmm.

So I have to ask the question, what is wrong with tricking the players? How boring life would be if the DM gave the players all of the answers and there were no mystery in the game.
 

For minions, only 2 out of 39 in the MM have the word Minion in the name. Some have names like Grunt that sound like minions, but many others do not.

Even so, it's going to be very helpful to the players in most cases. That is what matters. The roll is for that purpose, to learn what your character knows and how to use it to his advantage.

Silly? What is silly is giving players game mechanics info and pretending it is something they should know.
We can't seem to go beyond a fundamental difference of understanding how monster races have been drastically redesigned in 4e and its effect on the world. In your way of thinking its more like we never left 3e. All Kobolds are kobolds are kobolds and thus weak, and indistinguishable from each other. But in 4e they are no longer similar or homogeneous in role or ability.

Kobolds (or other creeps) in the 4e world that have minions, are listed as unique monsters with separate names for a reason. The MM stipulates that a hobgoblin archer is a separate monster from a hobgoblin soldier. They are related monsters, but nonetheless different. They are no longer like in 3e, just the same stat package, but one with a bow one with a sword.

In such a world where some Kobolds are vastly more powerful, the equal of low level players practically, and others are just common grunts or cannon fodder (kind of like all kobolds previously) I believe adventurers would naturally come to be able to point out and differentiate these foes on the battlefield. Indeed, their very lives might depend on it!

Very likely, the monsters themselves would differentiate these ranks by giving the minion's or weakest among them, worse weapons, worse clothing, trophies, etc. And this is exactly what is suggested for them. It does not take one being a special monster like Irontooth to be different from another.

I would rate a DM pretty poorly on creativity if I asked him to describe three monsters in front of me and one was a Orge Thug, one a Ogre Savage, and one a Ogre Warhulk, and he said simply, "Eh, they all look the same." Nevermind that the MM has one with Hide armor, one with a Flail and whatnot. A DM with enough reason can always change that stuff, but even apart from it, I would think these creatures would not look 'the same' just like a level 10 Paladin is noticeably less impressive looking than a level 1 in most all cases.

Minion is PURELY a game mechanic term. As such, it should never be given in a monster description. Just like Brute should not be. It's a Minotaur with a Battle Axe. Is that a Brute, or is that a Minion.
Yes, yes. This is not the meat of the discussion. It's meta-gaming to go this one is a minion and this one is a brute (unless those are their names or the DM simply prefers to do away with the rolls), but it is not meta-gaming for the DM to explain via descriptions or behaviors as to why these creatures might be different from each other.

So I have to ask the question, what is wrong with tricking the players? How boring life would be if the DM gave the players all of the answers and there were no mystery in the game.
It is not about 'giving' players the answers. It is about making the answers available in some form or fashion so minion identifying does not become a complete crapshoot. That might be indeed fun in certain prepared encounters, but not 50% of the battles or however many have minions.

The difference here is in the past all kobolds (& most races with minions) were roughly the same because they all had the same hit dice, similar hp, abilities, etc. Players roughly knew how to fight them and what threat they were. In 4e, the introduction of minions allows many of these monsters to vastly stratify in their power levels. You feel this would be entirely lost on 4e heroes who would still be seeing "a kobold is a kobold is a kobold." I don't think this stratification would go by unnoticed physically (weight, height, muscles, quickness, etc) appearance wise (richer accoutrements, better gear, etc) or even in observable bearing (skill handling their weapons, confidence, etc).

Would a DM describe a 12th level Fighter to the players the same as a 4th level Fighter? Would he describe a Kobold with 10 levels in the previous editions the same as a common kobold? I think not in all cases. Well in 4e, these critters have ranging power levels nearly equal to those differences, it just doesn't make sense to me none of this would be apparent. That is a 3e mindset that does not reflect that many of these races have both newfound power and weakness alike.

Heck, you could be running an all human world campaign and have players run into enemies like Vikings or Indians and if your DM was any good, still pick out the more impressive threatening warriors in a group, apart from the young or inexperienced ones bearing no scars, less menacing war paint, shoddier weapons, etc. This is the nuts and bolts of creative combat.

If you ran into centurions none would be minions! Because centurions must pass levels of fitness, endurance and skill such that they would not fall in one hit. The 'minions' would be the hired mercenaries in mismatched armor tagging along side them looking raggy in assorted arms. Such is similar to what the distinction might become between minions and the more powerful creature roles in 4e (i.e. Ogre Warhulk vs Thug).

I hope that did not wander off to confuse the issue, I am really trying to explain best I can why I don't see minions meant to be just doubles or dupes of these other creature roles, same race or not, who are much more powerful than them. These differences bring great implications for combat in 4e. Excepting special circumstances, I find it just disingenuous and lazy for the game or a DM and his players to treat all these monsters the same. It no longer fits with the mechanics of the game to do that. Neither logically or tactically. Which is why I believe the game expects, and probably Mearls suggested, for Minions to be obvious.
 
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So, it is not ok to try to prove oneself 'right', but it is ok to state that the other POV is trying to trick the players. Hmmm.
No, but apparently it is alright to state that other people's ways of doing things are 'kind of dumb' or 'lame'. ;P

Book-keeping considerations and general pointlessness of low level critters never hitting the party aside, minions work best to me as a purely cinematic construct. Waves of kobolds rushing the PC's from the treeline, hordes of mindless undead grasping for their flesh... sure, they can do damage en masse to the group, but they're best used, I have found so far, as an enticement to get the players to drop as many of them as they can in one hit. It feeds the drama of the combat and results in the general empowerment of the players' actions that 4E, I think, has brought to the table.

Consequently, I'm more like to reveal minions for what they are than try to hide them amidst a bunch of similar looking, non-minion allies. A couple of minions being dropped by accident is kind of cool... but half-a-dozen minions dropped because the wizard planted an AOE in their face is hella fun.
 

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