Should sorcerers know more spells?

[Dave Turner]

I know that this question might be somewhat minimized if there are any changes in 3.5e that I'm not aware of. With that disclaimer, I wonder if the ability of a sorcerer to cast any of his known spells is adequately counterbalanced by the extremely small spell selection they get?

What would be the harm doubling the number of spells a sorcerer knows? Would it be too unbalancing? My gut tells me that it wouldn't. Has anyone else thought about this?

 

[ThoughtBubble]

I've got a sorcerer in my campaign, and I think he's in a pretty decent space as it is. His spell list forces him to pick his spells carfully, and use them creatively. I think giving him twice as many spells would really start stepping on the wizard's toes.

In my campaign, given the general availabliity of scrolls, giving the sorcerer twice the number would be bringing him up even with the wizard.

This probablly varies from game to game, however.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

We use a house rule that allows sorcerer's bonus spells known for high intelligence. I think they could stand to learn a few more spells, but they are pretty tough as a class. Still not on par with a wizard, but a very good class nonetheless.

 

[Crothian]

As a DM I've handed out a few bonus spells of my choice to Sorcerers and Bards, but I think doubling their known spells would be way too much. I could see an extra one of each spell level, but not much more.

 

[Volaran]

The two sorcerors I've run (one into the mid-teens) have never seemed dull or limited with the current spell selection limits. I rather liken it to a fighter focusing on one particular type of fighting style.

Some fighters might be less effective in situations where mobility is vital and the heavy weapon/armor style they've focused on is limiting. That doesn't mean they should get further feats to catch up.

Similarly, sometimes a sorceror's spell selection will be more or less useful in different situations. Some sorcerors will be more useful when enchantments are called for, others when battle magic is the key. (I must admit using a lot of planar bindings with my mid-teen sorceror. More versitile, but constantly poor and in the oddest sort of debts.)

Granted, I agree with the 3.5 change of allowing the sorceror limited ability to swap out spells, but the limited selection has always been part of their interest to me.

A DM doing a good job will allow situations where the sorceror can shine, but also exploit the weaknesses as they should for any PC. It encourages group work, I find.

A sorceror player, will ideally be learing how to make the most out of his spells, and when that fails, his non-magical skills.


That said, I don't think a few extra spells would hurt the charatcer, but doubling known spells is a bit far. Maybe encourage players frustrated this to use the Extra Spell feat from Tome and Blood?

 

[LGodamus]

I would recommend against changing the number by too much....or you will completely emliminate the usefullness of the wizard class..

 

[Stalker0]

I could see a few more here and there, but doubling them is way way too much.

 

[paulewaug]

I was posting some questions about various things and
Tome and Blood came up, check it out.
In it there is a Feat allowing a caster to learn an extra spell,
that seems reasonable to me.

Also, before you judge the Sorcerer to harshly check out this thread:Is the Sorceror as bad as I think?
it has some interesting points that I personally had not considered.

Some key points (for me) include:

LordAO
I often find when playing a Wizard that I usually just end up preparing most of the same spells day after day anyways. So the limited spell selction of the Sorcerer doesn't bother me. I greatly enjoy the flexibility and power that it offers. As a Sorcerer I can have a large number of utility spells available yet still be able to serve as artillery as much as needed. So many times I would run into situations as a Wizard where I had prepared a spell one time too few that day. ARGGGH! And the DAMN spellbook! I hated having to put half or more of my money just into having spells! And then if my spellbook was ever lost, stolen, or damaged, I was utterly screwed. Utterly. I also hated how Wizards use metamagics. In order to have a still, silent spell, I have to prepare it that way. Well, I'm sorry. The only time I know I'm going to need it to be stilled or silent is when I'm casting it. So often times it would simply be a waste. Never so with a Sorcerer.

The Sorcerer has one huge thing for me - freedom. And that's why I will never endure the shackles of Wizardom again.

Elder-Basilisk
This rather depends upon how you play wizards. As the player of a wizard myself, I've found that, 95% of the time I stick with a short and specific list of prepared spells. Consequently, adding any significant number of spells to my spellbooks rapidly becomes a matter of diminishing returns.

A mid to high level sorceror constructed with minimal ideas of flexibility in mind will have far more flexibility in any given situation than a wizard since he will know a wider variety of spells than the wizard has prepared (and, most likely, a wider variety than the wizard can prepare on short notice--assuming the wizard doesn't leave half his spell slots open).

And, assuming that the sorceror spends the same amount of money on scrolls and wands that the wizard spends adding spells to his spellbook, the sorceror will probably have more spells at his fingertips too. After all, the cost of scribing a low-level spell is two to eight times higher than the cost of buying a scroll of it. So, if the wizard only uses the spells he's scribed two or three times over his career, a sorceror who bought scrolls of them instead of scribing them will come out ahead.

Pax
if the sorceror finds that ALL of his spells are useless, odds are, a wizard would too. Just as often.

With that said, unlike wizards, sorcerors tend to select spells based on multi-purpose usage. The best example I can remember from the core rules would be Glitterdust; at low levels, being able to blind your opponents is grand. At high levels, evenwhen the DC for the blinding is too low to be of anything but an occasional "bonus" effect ... the outlining of invisible targets for the melee and ranged figters to see (and, one hopes, kill) is still invaluable.

And that is the key to an efective sorceror. Youneed one, maybe two "blaster" type spells per level, and the rest ... should be utility spells. Preferably ALL of them, blaster and utility alike, should have multiple uses or applications.

Versatility of application within each single spell is what keeps a sorceror alive and fun to play.

Now yes, I've been in situations where my "best" spell was useless -- at 5th level, when my 2d-level repertoire consisted of Glitterdust and Melf's Acid Arrow ... and we were facing a black dragon.

Oh well, I pumped magic missiles, glitterdusts, and rays of frost into it. One spell down wasn't a killer, and it helped show everyone that my sorceror was NOT the be-all, end-all "blaster mage". Meanwhile, I took a back seat against that one foe; no biggie, noone can (nor should they) be in center spotlight for EVERY encounter.

there is a lot more than this, these are all taken from further down the thread.
Check it out, it goes both ways and is kind of insightful.
Hope this helps..

 

[Li Shenron]

You can double the bonus spells known when taking the Extra Spell feat, that is 2 instead of one, or let them pick as many new spells as their Int bonus. The feat is still limited to spells up to 1 level lower than the highest you can cast.

 

[Draugin]

I don't think sorcerer should get more known spells. If you feel that they are limited, you should add them some extra class abilities, or skill points (maybe 4), but doubling the known spells puts them in the realms of freecasting godmages.
If you permit them to have many more spells, insist that extra spells should be "minor" spells. These are some spells no standard sorcerer will ever take. With "minor extra spell known", you'll have some sorcerer with detect undead or Nystul's magic aura. Not astounding, but maybe they could find some use.