D&D 5E Should the Fighter's "Second Wind" ability grant temporary HP instead of regular HP?

[Mirtek]

Free surgeless healing, how could that be abused? Seriously? Man, you can't played D&D that much. We play in a VERY gritty high stakes campaign and every single spell and HD is treated as the precious little flower that it is. If we can benefit from the fighter healing himself for free by taking an extra hour while we wait, we will do that. And so should any smart group that is trying to survive against tough odds.

Well, it may be gritty, high stakes and tough, but obviously it's not urgent it you can afford to sit on your butts and twiddle your thumbs for an hour while everyone else is on the move.

Put it this way, we fought a wyvern at level 1 (with a little help). We are up against an army of ogres with ogre magi chasing us, who are trying to awaken a terrasque.

So be thankfull that he uses such a thorough approach that it doesn't matter when you rest for a hour

HD are precious, don't waste them

And when time is neither your approach is right

 

[Cybit]

So, uh, with those multiple three hour rests a day...when are you getting anything done? (Also, you're not in a gritty game if you can rest 17 hours a day. Your DM has convinced you all that you are, but if you can rest 9+ hours a day, then you're not in a gritty game.)

Cuz if you do, say, three of those, + a full 8 hour rest...you're looking at 17 hours a day of rest. And this assumes that you're not going into combat with those abilities, as that would add another hour to each of your rest. (Also, pretty sure jumping jacks wouldn't count as breaking a rest, though this explains all the bar fights that happen in the world)

To be perfectly honest; all you're ranting about is 5 Minute Work Day 2.0; which in a game that has abilities per day, you can't really get rid of.

Although it's not stated, short rests do have a limit on how many per day you can take; you only got 24 hours in a day, and frankly, if you are resting more than 8 hours a day in non-synchronous fashion, then why isn't the party resting 8 hours straight?

Finally, here's the part that will hopefully end the conversation; the game works perfectly fine even if you do chain short rests together. Because most groups will find a way to heal up between fights anyway. The fighter buys 20+ healing potions instead. Or whatever. I've let my players chain short rests together; and while the fighter and a couple of other classes love it, it doesn't really help them out all that much once you get into combat.

(Also hosed them later on because there was some known time pressure they ignored, but hey, their call).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Finally, here's the part that will hopefully end the conversation; the game works perfectly fine even if you do chain short rests together. Because most groups will find a way to heal up between fights anyway. The fighter buys 20+ healing potions instead. Or whatever. I've let my players chain short rests together; and while the fighter and a couple of other classes love it, doesn't really help them out all that much once you get into combat. (Also hosed them later on because there was some known time pressure they ignored, but hey, their call)

Wait, so 5e has let go of the idea of gradual attrition over multiple encounters? What about all that early talk about getting away from the encounter as the focus of gameplay and going toward a more holistic view of the entire adventure as a challenge?

That's...not the 5e I was being sold a few months ago, if that's the case.

There are a lot of things in the game that are theory-craftable; and are going to cause chaos. But playing the game will show the foolishness of those who believe the theory matches the reality. Thinking about this stuff in a vacuum is a pretty good way to expose one's own lack of understanding of the system.

There's a lot of going off the handle, and it totally might not be as big a deal as all that (as you say, in a vacuum), but all of the defenses for heals bigger than a short rest that can be restored with a short rest seem to be leaning hard on "A Good DM will fix it, and a Good Player won't press it!", which is not a very good defense, because an honor code isn't a good substitute for the game design that we're expected to pay for here. I can play pretend with an honor code and have it go fine, too. Or I can just go watch a movie or play a videogame where such things are unnecessary.

It's one thing to say, "Hm. Yeah, that might be a problem. Looks like something we may address if it turns out to be a real issue. But it might not be a big deal, either, Chicken Little, we'll see."

It's another to say "This is only a problem for people who DO IT WRONG." That way lies madness, I think.

 

[Cybit]

Wait, so 5e has let go of the idea of gradual attrition over multiple encounters? What about all that early talk about getting away from the encounter as the focus of gameplay and going toward a more holistic view of the entire adventure as a challenge?

That's...not the 5e I was being sold a few months ago, if that's the case.

My apologies, I do not mean to indicate that is not the case; it is far more like 3E in that respect than 4E ever was. But how many classes gain a benefit from chain short resting? Don't see anything about the cleric getting his spells back in the character sheet.

Let me state this another way; when was the last time fighter HP the limiting factor on how far the group can progress? Hell, what happens if you don't even have a fighter in the group? Usually the limiting factor of a group is the weakest link. So unless you have a group of only fighters, even if the fighter is fully rocking, someone else won't be.

There's a lot of going off the handle, and it totally might not be as big a deal as all that (as you say, in a vacuum), but all of the defenses for heals bigger than a short rest that can be restored with a short rest seem to be leaning hard on "A Good DM will fix it, and a Good Player won't press it!", which is not a very good defense, because an honor code isn't a good substitute for the game design that we're expected to pay for here. I can play pretend with an honor code and have it go fine, too. Or I can just go watch a movie or play a videogame where such things are unnecessary.

It's one thing to say, "Hm. Yeah, that might be a problem. Looks like something we may address if it turns out to be a real issue. But it might not be a big deal, either, Chicken Little, we'll see."

It's another to say "This is only a problem for people who DO IT WRONG." That way lies madness, I think.

I think Mearls and co have espoused the former philosophy; after all, why bother with a living ruleset if everyone is just "doing it wrong"? But I do think they assume that they will not catch every rules-lawyer-y type of shenanigans (which, per the written definition of short rest being 1 hour or more, chaining short rests is absolutely rules lawyering) and at a certain point, aren't going to modify an ability people enjoyed using in combat to deal with a very small percentage of people who are charitably interpreting a rule to say the least.

Honestly, people just need to hold on to their pants for a while and read the damn rules for themselves when they come out.

 

[DDNFan]

Well, it may be gritty, high stakes and tough, but obviously it's not urgent it you can afford to sit on your butts and twiddle your thumbs for an hour while everyone else is on the move. So be thankfull that he uses such a thorough approach that it doesn't matter when you rest for a hour And when time is neither your approach is right

You're just putting words in my mouth, I said if we can spend multiple hours to preserve Cure Wounds or Hit Dice, we would. The if being the key part, which isn't assumed either way. It definitely isn't possible to do it all the time, but even some times. It's not like we can't ever hide while the enemy army marches by, or find a cave. There are a million scenarios where we might have a few hours to spare and aren't being pursued.

Use your imagination. If any group can find the time, once per day, to rest for eight hours (not a given), then stand a better chance than that of finding a few extra hours here and there to spare, because X < 8 is less chance to have your rest interrupted. There are times when we don't even have time for a long rest, and others when we are doing guerilla warfare and can definitely do surgical strikes every few hours.

Travelling often means a greater chance of random encounters, but so can resting (short or long, or multiple short rests). Point is, taking a break for a couple hours isn't a stretch compared to one hour, it's not like there's some mystical hourglass hovering over the group dictating our pacing. We react to our circumstances and play accordingly.

I just don't buy any rationale for why a life cleric can only heal people up to 50% but the exact same timer on the fighter allows him to heal to max HP with zero daily resource cost. Because HP is stamina for the fighter, yet meat for the other party members. Or maybe it's only meat when you use magic to heal it, and it's stamina when you don't.

Very sad that people think it's fair and balanced that fighters should get free of daily cost heal to max HP, that wasn't even a thing in 4th edition and that was already way overboard for me and my group in terms of believability. Now when the DM starts realizing that the fighter never needs cure wounds because he gets it for free on his own, we're probably going to have to rethink our commitment to this game.

Fighters being the party member who needs cure wounds the least is a total reversal of old school D&D, and I agree with Kamikaze, it's definitely not what we were promised or even what we've been playing for the past months since the last packet came out.

I wonder how many 4th edition fans, if I were to start a poll on it, would think it was balanced to give surgeless second wind as an encounter power to every fighter, but only fighters. I would be incredulous if it came out positive.

 

[Remathilis]

I think the problem is we are still thinking in the "PER DAY" concept of D&D. That is, we start the day lily-fresh with all our spells and hp, and we whittle through them until the end of the day and we rest to do it again because D&D only allowed resource refresh in day-increments. Spells PER DAY. Rages PER DAY. Smites PER DAY. Daily Powers PER DAY. If the group expended too much of its resources in an encounter, you were out of that resource for THE DAY. If you used all your toys in a "challenging" fight and then (uncertainty being what it is) rested 8 hours to refuel for the next encounter (unless something stops you). What we've done is reduce the timeframe; instead of waiting a day for fresh hp, spells, turn attempts, smites, rages, or whatever, you wait an hour. Of course, you don't get everything back in an hour, a handful of spell levels, the fighter gets a free hit dice, but not the full spells and full hp of a long rest.

So what is chaining multiple short rests? 15 minute workdays, part 2.

Now that we've identified the problem, we can look at solutions. 15 minute workdays were a problem in AD&D, 3e and 4e, and appear to be back in 5e (though the downtime period is shorter, at least). How did you fight 15 min workdays before?

* Random encounters?
* Time constraints?
* Limited access to "camping" spots?

Or maybe you didn't and PCs took multiple days and weeks to clear out a dungeon, using guerrilla tactics to nuke, then retreat, rest and heal. That's a time-honored tradition in old-school dungeon crawls.

All that's happened is that rather than do rest 8 hours, you'll need to rest an hour if you intend to go nova and go rest. Same problem, same solutions, different timeframe.

 

[Cybit]

I think the problem is we are still thinking in the "PER DAY" concept of D&D. That is, we start the day lily-fresh with all our spells and hp, and we whittle through them until the end of the day and we rest to do it again because D&D only allowed resource refresh in day-increments. Spells PER DAY. Rages PER DAY. Smites PER DAY. Daily Powers PER DAY. If the group expended too much of its resources in an encounter, you were out of that resource for THE DAY. If you used all your toys in a "challenging" fight and then (uncertainty being what it is) rested 8 hours to refuel for the next encounter (unless something stops you). What we've done is reduce the timeframe; instead of waiting a day for fresh hp, spells, turn attempts, smites, rages, or whatever, you wait an hour. Of course, you don't get everything back in an hour, a handful of spell levels, the fighter gets a free hit dice, but not the full spells and full hp of a long rest.

So what is chaining multiple short rests? 15 minute workdays, part 2.

Now that we've identified the problem, we can look at solutions. 15 minute workdays were a problem in AD&D, 3e and 4e, and appear to be back in 5e (though the downtime period is shorter, at least). How did you fight 15 min workdays before?

* Random encounters?
* Time constraints?
* Limited access to "camping" spots?

Or maybe you didn't and PCs took multiple days and weeks to clear out a dungeon, using guerrilla tactics to nuke, then retreat, rest and heal. That's a time-honored tradition in old-school dungeon crawls.

All that's happened is that rather than do rest 8 hours, you'll need to rest an hour if you intend to go nova and go rest. Same problem, same solutions, different timeframe.

Pretty much this. Fighter HP is rarely what stops a party from adventuring forth; it is usually spellcasters that are the limiting factor. Honestly, with the lack of magic items in the game, my melee combatants carry enough healing potions to create a pool. Funny what people do with gold when they can't buy magic items.

As for the comments on free surgeless second winds; when second wind in 5E starts scaling at 25% life regardless of level, I'll start worrying. Seeing as my party is 3rd level in two sessions, and 5th level in a month afterward; the lack of scaling of second wind becomes an issue much sooner rather than later. Hell, dwarven durability made 4E dwarven high CON fighters functionally never run out of healing.

 

[Mirtek]

It's not like we can't ever hide while the enemy army marches by, or find a cave.

It's not as much no one bothering you for a hour, but rather you not bothering them for that hour.

that fighters should get free of daily cost heal to max HP

Given how badly that heal scales you will quickly reach the point where the fighter is taking so long for his heal, that everyone else just had a long rest waiting for him.

 

[Tony Semana]

There's a lot of going off the handle, and it totally might not be as big a deal as all that (as you say, in a vacuum), but all of the defenses for heals bigger than a short rest that can be restored with a short rest seem to be leaning hard on "A Good DM will fix it, and a Good Player won't press it!", which is not a very good defense, because an honor code isn't a good substitute for the game design that we're expected to pay for here. I can play pretend with an honor code and have it go fine, too. Or I can just go watch a movie or play a videogame where such things are unnecessary.

Is it such a tax to play 'with an honor code' that, faced with such a prospect, you would look to activities like watch a movie or play a video game, where that's unnecessary? Could you describe 'pretend to play with an honor code'? Is it hard to play with a mutual social contract in your group, or are you putting it out as a potential issue for other groups? Very true to you could watch a movie or play a video game, but neither of those things require cooperative interaction with a group, and that's what (most?) people play D&D for isn't it?

an honor code isn't a good substitute for the game design that we're expected to pay for here

Why isn't it reasonable to design a game with the expectation that GM's will try to be good GM's and players will try to be Good Players, **in whatever definition that entails for each group**. I'm glad that this game leans more on "Good DM + Good Player" expectations. Thanks goodness they didn't feel like they needed to lock down every rule to the extent where 'bad' players can't take advantage of the system. Because that would have resulted in a bloat of rules and taken many times longer to publish.

It's one thing to say, "Hm. Yeah, that might be a problem. Looks like something we may address if it turns out to be a real issue. But it might not be a big deal, either, Chicken Little, we'll see."

It's another to say "This is only a problem for people who DO IT WRONG." That way lies madness, I think.

I agree, but are you saying other players are saying this, or the devs? I don't hear the devs saying that. I heard them say "maybe it's a table problem, or it isn't if that's the way the table wants to play". They're leaving it to the group to mutually set the contract of play. On the subject of "that might be a problem" rules changes, didn't they address that in the L&L where they outlined their plan to maintain the living rules set? If it's a real problem it'll be fixed via that process.

If it's other people, well, again it's a table decision.

 

[Chaltab]

I'm STILL just baffled as to where DDNfan has a problem. I've been DMing 4E game for two years. My party 'takes multiple short rests' all the time and it's never caused any problems. Even resting after a fight, healing with a cleric's help, and then resting again so that the cleric's encounter healing powers are back... it doesn't break the game because still requires the expenditure of a finite resource (Surges in 4E, Hit Dice in Next) and thus contributes to overall party attrition.

This is even less doable in DDN because 1) characters have fewer hit dice than they did surges in 4E, and 2) default short rests are an hour, meaning taking two in a row isn't really possible if the Bad Guy is about to unleash the demon horde at the stroke of midnight and it's 10:52PM. I mean I guess your players could still do that, but then by all means, they have to fight the demon horde as well as the bad guy.