Should the Greatsword be d12?

[keterys]

So, comparing to a maul (or greataxe, it mostly works out the same)... the greatsword does 1.5 less damage per W in exchange for +1 to hit.

Given what hitting gives you, I'm not sure how I see that it's any worse, at all, than the other great weapons.

If you make the greatsword d12, it's flat out better than the other weapons on its own... so unless someone wants to focus on something like hammer rhythm then they should use a greatsword.

If the bastard sword offends you, strike _that_, not the greatsword. Cpt Micha, can you link your scale analysis?

 

[keterys]

If that was in the game, then yes, they would. Can you answer any of my questions, or are you just here to snark and drink the free booze?

You missed the entire point. If the greataxe doesn't suck, but adding a waraxe makes the greataxe suck... then either your definition for suck is wrong, or you object to adding superior weapons. Either way, the fix is not to up the damage on the greataxe retroactively so it's 2d6, say, same as the maul, but also high crit.

 

[Cpt_Micha]

So, comparing to a maul (or greataxe, it mostly works out the same)... the greatsword does 1.5 less damage per W in exchange for +1 to hit.

Given what hitting gives you, I'm not sure how I see that it's any worse, at all, than the other great weapons.

If you make the greatsword d12, it's flat out better than the other weapons on its own... so unless someone wants to focus on something like hammer rhythm then they should use a greatsword.

If the bastard sword offends you, strike _that_, not the greatsword. Cpt Micha, can you link your scale analysis?

Sure thing. I made this test shortly after I looked over the weapons. I don't have any great weapon fighters in general, but I'm always interested in seeing how things balance out, especially since I'll be making my own weapons at some point.

It's something I came up with on my own but it works out.
+2 to hit = 2 points, +3 to hit =3points (this is straightforward) d4= 2 points, d6= 3pts, d8=4, D10=5, 2d4=5, d12=6, 2d6=7, 2d8=8 this is all based on average damage results
Next factor, one hander =1 point, off hand =1 point, versatile= 1 point, high crit=2 points, Two hander = -1 pt. Reach = 2 pts, thrown or heavy thrown= 1 point

Dagger (always a good base line in my opinion) 2, 2, 1, 1=7 pts This is a simple weapon and thus should be the best a simple weapon can hope for
Club 2, 3, 1 =6
Javelin 2, 3, 1, 1 =7
Mace 2, 4, 1 = 7
Sickle 2, 3, 1=7
Spear 2, 4, 1, 1=8 (this is the only exception to the simple weapon rule by the way)

Two handed simples,
great club 2, 5, -1 =6
Morning star 2, 5, -1=6
Quarter Staff 2, 4 -1 =5 (yeah still the worst weapon in the damned game)
Scythe 2, 5, -1=6

Onto Martial Weapons (military whatever) The reason one handers get a point on the chart is because you can have a shield with them
Battle axe 2, 5, 1,1=9
Flail 2, 5, 1, 1=9
Handaxe 2, 5, 1, 1=9
Longsword 3, 4, 1, 1=9
Scimitar 2, 4, 1, 2=9
Warpick 2, 4, 1, 2=9
Shortsword 3, 3, 1, 1=8 (but is off hand)
Thrown Hammer/axe 2, 3, 1, 1=8
Warhammer 2, 5, 1, 1=9

Two Handers
Falchion 3, 5, -1, 2=9
Glaive 2, 5, -1, 2=8
Greataxe 2, 6, -1, 2=9
Greatsword (raw) 3, 5, -1=7
Greatsword (mine) 3, 6, -1=8
Halbred, 2, 5, -1, 2 =8
Longspear 2, 5, -1, 2=8
Maul 2, 7, -1=8

Superior
Bastard Sword 3, 5, 1, 1=10
Katar 3, 3, 1, 3,=10
Rapier 3, 4, 1=8
Spiked Chain 3, 5, -1, 2=9

 

[Stalker0]

Here's my issue with the greatsword.

Damage isn't everything, that +3 to attack rolls means a lot, especially when I use powers that do more than just damage. But...on the other hand, if I don't care as much about the big damage, then why go THW at all...just use a longsword and a shield?

However, the balance point between the greataxe and greatsword is pretty thin, I think a bump to its die is too great a change. What if you gave the weapon another minor property like:

Charge: A greatsword gains a +1 to attack rolls when used on a charge.

 

[Cpt_Micha]

Here's my issue with the greatsword.

Damage isn't everything, that +3 to attack rolls means a lot, especially when I use powers that do more than just damage. But...on the other hand, if I don't care as much about the big damage, then why go THW at all...just use a longsword and a shield?

However, the balance point between the greataxe and greatsword is pretty thin, I think a bump to its die is too great a change. What if you gave the weapon another minor property like:

Charge: A greatsword gains a +1 to attack rolls when used on a charge.

High crit really counts for alot, thats what most people miss. and I do mean -a lot- Yes a +3 to hit on the scale is higher than a high crit rating, but the great axe has a +2 to hit, d12, -and- high crit.

One handers are the best weapons in the game, thanks to the fact that they can be used with shields, and a good portion of them are versatile anyway. As it stands now there are two 9s, the Falchion and the Great Axe.

Both of which are far more appealing mechanically speaking than a G.S

 

[Kzach]

So, comparing to a maul (or greataxe, it mostly works out the same)... the greatsword does 1.5 less damage per W in exchange for +1 to hit.

Given what hitting gives you, I'm not sure how I see that it's any worse, at all, than the other great weapons.

If you make the greatsword d12, it's flat out better than the other weapons on its own... so unless someone wants to focus on something like hammer rhythm then they should use a greatsword.

If the bastard sword offends you, strike _that_, not the greatsword. Cpt Micha, can you link your scale analysis?

Comparing the greataxe and the maul to the greatsword you're neglecting several factors. The greataxe has a flat 5% chance per strike of doing up to DOUBLE the amount of damage a d12 greatsword can. The maul is a double-dice weapon, which means a higher median and minimum damage, ie. you're generally going to do more damage with it than with a single-die weapon.

Making the greatsword d12 doesn't make it better than the other weapons, it simply brings it up to par with them. It makes the greatsword a viable choice rather than a no-brainer to go with something else. As it stands, the falchion is a far better weapon than the greatsword, even at the reduced damage die, simply due to the average damage being only .5 lower, and the 5% potential to do up to 6 points more damage than it, combined with a higher median and minimum damage.

You'd be silly to take a greatsword at the moment. It is by far, the suboptimal choice. d12 doesn't make it the best choice either, it simply makes it a viable choice.

 

[keterys]

If you hit 65% of the time, the greataxe high crit at heroic works out to be the same on 1W attacks as the Maul's extra .5. More to hit, it's better, less to hit it's worse. At paragon, it's the same on 2W, epic 3W. (6.5 extra damage per crit, 1 crit per 13 hits at 65% hit = .5 more per hit)

So greataxe and maul are close enough.

The greatsword's +1 to hit depends on both damage dealt and number of W, obviously enough, just to compare damage. Let's say you're at 1d10+6 (11.5) or 2d6+6 (13), then your 1.5 damage vs. +1 to hit is as good or better if you A) have power attack and want to use it B) your chance to hit with a maul is 40% or less, and it's of miniscule difference (less than 1 damage average) at all possible hit values. Of course, how much you value landing a stun, push, cleave, combat superiority to stop, or whatever is a bit more ephemeral. I value it to at least 1 damage myself.

Hence, my objection that they're all balanced fine.

 

[Kzach]

I forgot to mention that any power that increases the amount of attacks you make, also increases the value of high-crit, whereas a hit bonus gives the same basic value for every attack. The more chances you have to crit, the greater the value of the high-crit ability.

Then there are powers with multiple damage dice. These powers benefit a double-damage dice weapon far and away more than they do a single-die weapon. A falchion or maul is a far better choice for a character with a lot of multi-die powers than a greatsword.

Consider the damage done in a 2 (w) or a 3 (w) by a maul and falchion vs. a greatsword, with averages and crit potentials and in parenthesis.

2 (w) 3 (w)
Greatsword (d10) 2-20 (11) 3-30 (16.5)
Greatsword (d12) 2-24 (13) 3-36 (19.5)
Maul 4-24 (14) 6-36 (21)
Falchion 4-16 (10; 24) 6-24 (15; 32)

In all instances, the d10 greatsword is, by far, the inferior choice. Even upping it to d12 doesn't significantly boost its desirability, however it does put it at least within the same league as its competitors.

 

[keterys]

Umm, +1 to hit is almost always good. More attacks doesn't make it less good. Similarly, the bigger the attack the more important hitting is, so that scales too.

Ex: 7W+27 epic attack. 14d6+27 = ~73 avg damage. 7d10+27 = 65.5 avg damage. 40% hit chance with maul gives tiny bit more damage to greatsword actually. Get up to 60% and you finally do +1 more damage with the maul. At the extreme high end it's +3 damage average for maul and at low end +2.5 average damage for greatsword.

Again, what is stun, immobilize, etc worth?

 

[Cpt_Micha]

Keterys did you see my scaling chart?