Should the Greatsword be d12?

[The_Spider]

Perhaps if we just used a house feat, that took the great sword damage to 2d6. That would be enough so that it would be a viable choice.

Zweihander
Prerequisites: Trained in Greatsword, Strength 13
Benefit: When using a Greatsword the base damage is increased to 1d12 and 2d6 at Paragon Tier.

 

[keterys]

... the math is up there. The greatsword is a completely viable choice already, without any alteration.

 

[Kzach]

... the math is up there. The greatsword is a completely viable choice already, without any alteration.

I think you're choosing to see what you want to see. If anything, the various statistics here have shown it is underpowered as is.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Doing the same math for 1H weapons:
Without Improved Critical or other special feats:
Battleaxe/Flail/Warhammer: 59.5n + 10B
Scimitar/War Pick: 48.5n + 10B + 4.5t
Longsword: 53n + 11B
Bastard Sword: 65n + 11B
Battleaxe > Scimitar if 11n > 4.5t, which is always true
Longsword > Battleaxe if B > 6.5n, which may or may not be true.
Longsword > Scimitar if 4.5n+B > 4.5t, which is basically always true.
Bastard Sword is better than all other weapons by a bunch, though dwarven weapon training beats it for the battleaxe and warhammer. For T2 comparisons, we'll just use the bastard sword and no longsword entry.

With special feats, T2:
Battleaxe (Deadly Axe): 59.5n + 10B + 9
Flail (Sweeping Flail vs Shield): 70.5n + 12B
Warhammer (Hammer Rhythm, 17 Con): 59.5n + 10B + 30
Scimitar (Scimitar Dance, 17 Dex): 48.5n + 10B + 39

Battleaxe > Bastard Sword if 9 > 5.5n + B, which is grossly unlikely.
Flail > Bastard Sword if >50% of targets have shields, which is unlikely.
Warhammer > Bastard Sword if 30 > 5.5n + B, which is likely.
Scimitar > Bastard Sword if 39 > 16.5n + B, which is likely true for rangers, false for anyone else.
Warhammer > Scimitar if 11n > 9, which is always true.

With improved critical, T3:
Bastard Sword: 70.5n + 11B
Battleaxe (Deadly Axe): 65n + 10B + 27
Flail (Sweeping Flail vs Shield): 76n + 12B
Warhammer (Hammer Rhythm, 19 Con): 65n + 10B + 40
Scimitar (Scimitar Dance, 19 Dex): 53n + 10B + 67

Bastard Sword > Battleaxe if 5.5n + B > 27, which is likely.
Bastard Sword > Flail if <50% of targets have shields, which is likely.
Warhammer > Bastard Sword if 40 > 5.5n + B, which is likely.
Warhammer > Scimitar if 12n > 27, which is likely.
Scimitar > Bastard Sword if 16.5n + B < 67, which is iffy (probably true for a ranger, probably about equal for other classes).

Conclusions:
at T1, if you only spend 1 feat, scimitar and war pick suck, the rest are pretty balanced vs one another. If you spend 2 feats, go bastard sword and weapon spec unless you're a dwarf.
at T2, warhammer is the best if you're willing to buy a 17 con, otherwise go bastard sword or scimitar. Don't go battleaxe unless you're a dwarf and don't qualify for hammer rhythm. Don't go flail or war pick.
at T3, the situation is much the same.

 

[keterys]

I think you're choosing to see what you want to see. If anything, the various statistics here have shown it is underpowered as is.

How so? It does almost as much damage as the maul and greataxe, more under occasional circumstances, and it's _flat out better_ for killing minions, finishing off critically injured foes, and landing effects of any kind. That's almost the height of viable.

 

[keterys]

I'm really not trying to cause offense here... but other than Anthony Jackson's work I haven't seen a lot of actual credible math. All of the spreadsheets or scales posted are just wrong. They're wrong in a tremendously understandable fashion because they're trying to compare weapons under the theory that they aren't actually _used by a character_, but attacks will always have bonus damage and the vast majority will have a special effect. Beyond that a certain percentage of attacks will do too much damage (minions, enemies with low hp remaining, overkill crits), for which the damage die increase matters not at all, but the attack bonus counts for everything. The situations in which you hit on a number below 2 are far less common.

 

[Kzach]

Still didn't answer my other question.

Where are all the melee strikers with greatswords?

 

[erik_the_guy]

I made an excel sheet to consider the greataxe and the greatsword in comparison. I plotted the average damage for a melee basic attack with a +4 str mod to damage. I considered all base chances to hit between 0% and 95% for the axe and the same attacks made with the greatsword with between 5% and 95% chance to hit appropriately. I listed the average damage of each weapon (5.5 for greatsword and 6.5 for greataxe) as well as the average bonus damage from a critical hit (4.5 for greatsword, 12 for greataxe). The overall average damage for a weapon was:
(Chance to hit*average damage)+(5% chance for crit*bonus damage from crit).
The greataxe seemed to perform the best overall. I was most interested in the range where your chance to hit (with a +2 proficiency bonus) was between 40% and 60% (or 5% higher with the greatsword). The greataxe had a higer average damage in this entire range. At the line where the greataxe had 50% hit chance and the greatsword had 55%, the average damages were 5.45 for the greatsword and 5.85 for the greataxe.
The average damages include the chance to hit, chance to crit. Remember, I am assuming a melee basic attack with a +4 modifier to damage for a heroic tier character.

I modified the chart so the greatsword used 1d12 for damage. The result was that the greatsword now always dealt 0.15 higher damage except when your base chance to hit was unrealistically high (90%+). It would appear that the greatsword is just a bit weaker than the axe in terms of damage output.

With certain powers, a high #[W] damage makes the +1 to hit on a greatsword more appealing, but it also makes the higher [W] of the greataxe appealing.

The greataxe is definitley a higher damage weapon than the greatsword. Even in attacks that deal [7]W I am sure you will find that the higher damage die of the axe (multiplied by 7) makes up for the swords +1 to hit. It seems that the axe fighter is best to take high [W] powers and the sword fighter should take powers that have a special effect on a hit (cleave, crack the shell, etc).

I attached the two excel files that calculated the average damage output.

 

[keterys]

Still didn't answer my other question.

Where are all the melee strikers with greatswords?

Maybe in the PHB2? Why does it matter? Are you trying to make a claim that a defender doesn't want to hit?

 

[keterys]

Good stuff, Erik. It's particularly noteworthy that the d12 greatsword is not only better at damage than the greataxe and maul, but its bonus to hit _also_ makes it superior for all of these other instances. That's a surefire sign that it's a bad idea.

This is really important for folks to realize. The maul and greataxe have to average slightly more damage (and it's real slight, fractions) than the greatsword to balance against its +1 attack (which has its own uses).

Also, if you check at different points in the tier, it'll look even worse. With a +2 weapon, +5 str, and +1 feat bonus (ie, +4 damage over what you listed) that closes the gap considerably for the d10 and shoots the d12 even more ahead. +2 and +3 more than you have is most likely the right median values, though (+1 or +2 weapon, +4 str, +1 feat bonus)