Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

[S'mon]

However, I think it does show what WOTC considers "mature." Mr. Valterra may talk a lot about mature-themed supplements, but their actions surrounding the BoVD show that they are not capable to creating books that will live up to the name. Their definition of "mature" is flawed. They're like the dorks who start giggling when someone says, "boobies."

I fear this may be true. My impression (and best hope) though is that they're looking at publishing a 'mildly politically incorrect' line that emphasises the kind of stuff that was standard in sword & sorcery fiction and games before the late-80s. So things like nudity in artwork, more gore, darker settings, maybe a little moral ambiguity*, seem likely. These may be combined with a tone aimed more at adult readers. I think this would be a good development. Maybe they could hire SHARK to do the product development?

*Not that Conan worries about moral ambiguity when he slaughters the city law enforcement personnel in a typical REH romp.

 

[Harlock]

Also from Monte in last nigt's moderated chat in the EN World official chat channel #dnd3e on chat.psionics.net ports 6660 - 6669:

[20:53] {thatdarncat} {Brood-Willard} Should the "vile" products be put onto the back burner for awhile longer, or can D&D stand the possibility of bad press now?
[20:54] {Monte} Well, the only "bad press" D&D got for BoVD came from within the D&D community as far as I know. I don't see the need for more "vile"

 

[MGibster]

Re: Re: Re: Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

For a genuine ancient Greek feel most of the nudes would need to be male, of course, which indeed might not sell to well to most D&Ders.
Of course ancient Greek nudes, male & female, seem to be primarily exercises in idealising/exalting the human form, so they don't much resemble modern pornography and I doubt many people find them titillating.

Most of the nude art would be made to resemble the art found on ancient pottery and other artifacts. On the regular art maybe some bare ass when depicting people engaging in various athletic activities. There are actually plenty of ancient artifacts that resemble modern pornography. There is pottery depicting sexual intercourse between men and women in every way possible and even depictions of men having sex with animals. We're talking graphic pictures here though I certainly wouldn't include that in my game. There's only so far I'd be willing to go.

Marc

 

[LostSoul]

Theres a lot better games and settings for playing and carrying a dark fantasy setting that D&D in my opinion, the fact D&D spells it all out for you at character creation by saying that 'You are L/C/N Good, You are L/C/N Evil' means that there really isnt a lot more to it than that. You play your characters personality as close as you can to an alignment and its all pretty simple from the get go.

I think D&D is flexible enough to handle a lot of different types of games. (As long as they take place in the dungeon. ) You can either ditch alignment - no big change - or you can have alignment be reactive, where the PCs take actions and their alignments follow instead of the other way around (where PCs take actions based on their alignment).

 

[Thresher]

Flexible yes, a simple change no it isnt.
One of the most fun games Ive played recently is the Slaine D20 system which has no such things as alignment, its similar in some respects but much different to core D&D. In that respect its maybe based on D&D but its still a different game.

I'll try not to wander too far off topic, but D&D as its core rules uses archtypes for characters and NPC's as a guide to play but also to support the rest of the rules system.
We start making changes to alignement, then you have to make changes to-
Core classes, Pali's monks, druids, clerics
Divine Magic, modify anything to do with alignement there
Arcane Magic, to some degree the divinations and 'evil/good' descriptor spells
PrC's, some of these will need changes based on the changes to the core classes.

By the time your done, all you'll have left is a melee system and I can guarentee it wont be something you'll do over a weekend alone.

I like open-alignment game systems where I make up a character or NPC based completly on their background and upbringing which will determine their current outlook and behaviour, that in itself being a maleable factor as the campaign progresses.
However, you want to apply that to D&D by all means, Im not saying people shouldnt, but be aware its probably a better system for handing a mature line of products than the core rules would be.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I put this in the poll, but since this seems to get more attention that the POLL thread, I'll repost it here...
Hmmm...
More "Vile" content...
//Begin Sarcasm
Whee.
Look at me.
OOoooh, forcefeeding the PC's Lima Beans...
Vile...
//End Sarcasm

Honestly, I looked through BoVD and laughed at it. "Wizards Presents: Politically Correct Kinda Startling Vaguely Shadowy Stuff that Might Frighten a Child."
Then went home, where my kids were watching the news, complete with bloody photo's of someone who got splashed.

Unrestrained depiction of painful, real life death.
That's Vile.
Ooooh, dark energy and some sorta-kinda sacrifices.
No vile.
Game Mechanics for Pedophilia...
Over the top, I'll hurt you if I catch you, that's right, you the writer, Vile.
A drawing of a statue of a NAKED woman (not a woman whose flesh turned to stone while her possessions remained intact)...
Not vile. Art.
People screaming as thier skin blisters up, the blisters pop, and thier skin begins melting off...
Vile
Kicking a beggar in the mouth...
Evil Lite.
Dead children having to be autopsied to find which abuse killed them...
Vile.
People consorting with demons to gain power...
Interesting, stupid (on thier part), but hardly Vile.

Honestly, I think Vile matters on the following topics:
Presentation: Does the writer present it in a clean, straight forward presentation, or does he sound like he wrote it in the closet with the nieghbor girl's underwear over his head.
Art: Was the art depicting something in the writing that may have been difficult to visualize, or was it just thrown in there to make someone go "ewww" or for the publisher to say: "We're VILE only we'd publish this pic an insane hobo drew for us!"
Mechanics: Are the mechanics crisp and clean, or will they make me want to claw out my eyes in agony? If it's going to be another FATAL, keep it. If it's going to be like "Requiem for a God", well, let me take a look.
Compatibility: How well will this intrigrate into a campaign? (Despite the current: "Everything should be usable by everyone" crap going around, me and my players know that some things are DM only) Will it buff up the bad guys? Is the penalties realistic and a horrible price to pay, or does the guy just grow a 3rd eye on his back?
Progression: Can the product be used in little parts, or do I have to go full bore and use all of it? Can I add your "Soul Render" PrC, or do I have to use everything in it?
Maturity: Is it written in a mature, clinical manner, or read as if it was the fantasies of a teenage Jeffery Dahmer?
Impact: If this book is seen by my minister, will he burst into flames? Will the publisher be causing damage to the reputation of the game to make a buck? It wasn't that long ago gamers were villified on national TV and by police.
Well, that's my windbag take on Vile.

Now as far as mature, here's my take:
Partial nudity (Showing a woman's buttocks or one breast) not bared for the sake of baring it, but artistically, done within the portrait, I don't consider nudity. However, when my friend say my screensaver (All neo-classical electronic images) he thought it was pornography (including the Adam & Eve).
So nudity is pornography is in the eye of the beholder there.
Mature content is the same.
20 years ago, Friday the 13th (The first one) was considered Rated R, nowdays, it would be considered weak R at best, PG-17.
more than likely. I even saw it uncut on USA the other night.
But, how will the mature topics be handled. How will people handle the appearance of prostitutes in a module, or, god forbid, a male prostitute? Most gamers as I've seen them would be giggling like they had managed to load an extra five points of armor on the back of thier Mad Cat.
What about mature content as far as realism? Is that what makes it mature? Is it because when the party stumbles upon the scene, there is a description of the murder victim? Or is the realism like FATAL's realism... (Bleargh)
While I don't particularly think a spell that causes elephantitis of the genetalia to be all that amusing, and actually, kind of juvenile, in a horror adventure, an effect or curse of some kind that makes a character lactate blood adds necessary horror to the adventure provided it's not only labeled mature, but HANDLED in a mature manner.

I guess my long windbag adds up to: "If your going to attempt to do mature content, do it maturely, no like a 2nd grader doing the "poopie-fart-doodi" act in the schoolyard."
If your going to do Vile, do it clinically and informative, not "shock value".

 

[Katowice]

I probably wouldn't buy such material, just because I have kids and I like to keep my D&D stuff on my bookshelf, not locked in a footlocker under a hidden compartment in my sub-basement. The most mature RPG book I have is possible "Call of Cthulhu d20" (which discusses insanity, dysfunctions, cults, etc.). I found BOVD pretty useless, though I did like the updating of the arch-fiends. That wasn't enough to make me buy it, however.

That said, a Vertigo-style series of D&D books might interesting. I thought BOVD was definitely more on the extreme end of what I saw in Vertigo comics (Preacher, Hellblazer). Just don't make anything like the Book of Nymphology

BTW, the 1E D&D books could probably have been called "mature" as far as the artwork is concerned, especially such boobie-laden books as Monster Manual and Dieties & Demigods.

Another poster was right about the nudity vs. violence issue: I've spent some time in Europe and noticed that they are not too concerned with nudity (topless sunbathing at a German public pool), but don't seem to like violence & gore as much (Italian zombie movies aside).

 

[Mark Chance]

Well, it's like this:

Without BoVD: "I'm evil, and I do all these nasty things because I'm evil, darn-it."

With BoVD: "I'm evil, and I do all these nasty things because it makes me powerful."

It may have been like that for your games, but not for mine. Not even when I ran superhero RPGs were my villains so cartoonish. And, since I don't own the BoVD, it is obvious that the BoVD is more like reinventing the wheel that adding a new layer to the cake of RPing.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

It may have been like that for your games, but not for mine.

>Buzz!< Wrong answer. Thanks for playing.

This is the kind of comic-book Evil that the Player's Handbook presents in its alignment system, as I've often been a fan of the "anti-hero" and wouldn't subscribe to such a simplistic view. This comment (which is a good ways back in this conversation to be pulled up, btw) is simply about Evil as WotC presents it in BoVD, which is far more colorful (and thus, for me, usable). By this I mean that the Feats, Spells, and other items represent more clearly the temptation and allure to become Evil, serving a function similar to (but different from) SW's Dark Side Points. Much like the Paladin's abilities, most of these abilities become lost should the character ever cease to be Evil as most of them have the Evil alignment as a prereq.

Of course, not having the BoVD yourself, I wouldn't expect you to be aware of these facts, or the "new layer of the cake" that it does indeed add if not used in a gratuitous, immature manner.

 

[Mark Chance]

>Buzz!< Wrong answer. Thanks for playing.

Wrong in what way? That I don't need to go and drop X number of dollars on a book in order to seriously deal with mature themes and evil NPCs in my campaigns?

Let's back and look at your original assertions:

Well, it's like this:

Without BoVD: "I'm evil, and I do all these nasty things because I'm evil, darn-it."

With BoVD: "I'm evil, and I do all these nasty things because it makes me powerful."

Neither of those assertions are true in my games. I am quite capable of crafting evil characters with depth of motivation (certainly more depth than "I'm evil because it make me powerful.") I do this crafting without the BoVD. In fact, I'd been doing such crafting for many years before there was a BoVD.

So, once again, you might need the BoVD. I do not.