Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

Bendris Noulg said:
No, I haven't. Chances are you haven't. Thing is, while I and others are willing to wait and see what the possibilities are, many others here are willing to condemn the label "mature content" without any foreknowledge at all.

The foreknowledge is the mature content we have already seen. So far, everything labelled "mature" has been of the same type of content. While me may not know the full breadth of what the material is likely to contain, we do know what a subset of it will most likely contain. There is precedent.

We don't yet, on the other hand, have any solid information that such content would contain anything else. Despite this, you use complete speculation as to the nature of the Book of Exalted Deeds, of which we know virtually nothing about other than the name, as the basis for your argument that *other* people are making wild assumptions.
 

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kenjib said:
The foreknowledge is the mature content we have already seen. So far, everything labelled "mature" has been of the same type of content. While me may not know the full breadth of what the material is likely to contain, we do know what a subset of it will most likely contain. There is precedent.
I guess I'm a bit more hopeful. For instance, in many cultures, the nude form wasn't considered a sinful thing. While BoVD seemed to portray nudity as a form of flaunting, disrespecting and even disfiguring the physical form, the BoED might have just as much nudity, but instead focus on basking in beauty and purity, regarding the physical form as a temple, something to be charished and not shameful.

At the very least, I have a hard time imagining it being remotely like BoVD, not just because of the name, but because of its focus on alignment: A book on Good, handled in a fashion to be deemed "mature". Kinda like Nat20's Death book, with its completely unorthodox, yet interesting and even intrigueing, look at the goddess that ends our lives.
 

Why is it that so many people seem fixated on Vileness?


Hong "would never fixate on the NIPPLE CLAMPS OF EXQUISITE PAIN" Ooi
 


The Sigil said:
Just thought I would throw this out here for discussion. Two questions:

Should there be a Vile/Mature product line (distinct from the Core line)?


I really don't think that it is fair to lump mature and vile together as they are not one and the same. What is mature isn't necessarily vile and what is vile isn't necessarily mature. Friday the 13th and Stand by Me are both rated R but one is vile and the other is mature. Uh, I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

I've been working on a D&D setting based on ancient Greece. The greeks had very different attitudes about sexuality, gender roles, religion, and human rights then we do. There will be NPCs who have homosexual relationships, the Spartan PCs will probably be more then happy to summarily execute uppity slaves,
and if I decide to publish and need artwork there will probably be a few nudes. (Unless I decide that nudes would just make the game completely unsellable.) I don't think any of it would be particularly vile but it would be mature.

(Ok, murdering poor defenseless slaves might be pretty vile but we've already established that murder is ok in mainstream RPGs.)


Should Dragon and/or Dungeon be considered "Core" material for purposes of this discussion?


Probably not. Simply because it might drive more subscribers away then it will bring in. Remember the ruckus a year or two back with the artwork depicting a halfing that brained an orc with a large club? I'm not against mature or vile content I just think there's a proper place for these things. Those publications aren't it.

Marc
 

BelenUmeria said:
Ah, you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that we should go out and recruit younger players for our games. I am saying that WOTC should work to make the game available for younger gamers and try to market to younger gamers.

I can picture it! "Hey kids, I noticed y'all enjoyed the Lord of the Rings movie. How's about you come over to my place tonight for some fun, adventure, and hot action!"

Marc
 

Re: Re: Should there be a "Vile/Mature" line of products?

MGibster said:

There will be NPCs who have homosexual relationships, the Spartan PCs will probably be more then happy to summarily execute uppity slaves,
and if I decide to publish and need artwork there will probably be a few nudes. (Unless I decide that nudes would just make the game completely unsellable.)

For a genuine ancient Greek feel most of the nudes would need to be male, of course, which indeed might not sell to well to most D&Ders. :)
Of course ancient Greek nudes, male & female, seem to be primarily exercises in idealising/exalting the human form, so they don't much resemble modern pornography and I doubt many people find them titillating.
 

Theres a lot better games and settings for playing and carrying a dark fantasy setting that D&D in my opinion, the fact D&D spells it all out for you at character creation by saying that 'You are L/C/N Good, You are L/C/N Evil' means that there really isnt a lot more to it than that. You play your characters personality as close as you can to an alignment and its all pretty simple from the get go.
You meet people that are bad/good/ not of your alignment and you beat them into a pulp like villans and hero's should.
Thats not to say you cant have your PC's being complicated, developed and dealing with things that maybe some people consider mature and dealing with complicated plots.
But this really is just an escapist fantasy game and I dont think it was ever marketed toward being anything more than a simple game of dice, rules, monsters, dungeons and books.
Its simple and its fun, maybe leave it at that.

Play something dark serious and scary?
Play the White Wolf games, as much as some people malign them they where written with the intent of telling a good story, SLA Industries and Kult also do a great job of conveying a sci fi and contempory feel to a dark roleplaying game.
That said, Im willing to look at something that makes D&D break out from its pidgeon hole of being a monster bashing, good vs evil heroic fantasy setting. If someone could/would write it.

What I would like to see time and effort devoted is back to the core rules and an overhaul of the life after level 20 setting.
 

Bendris Noulg said:
Yes, that's what a book named "exalted" is about, all the same things that "vile" is about.

This honestly was a serious question to clarify the situation. There is another thread that is going around denoting "mature" situations such as reprocussions to action, per se. To this, I don see this as a bad variant and would be interested to possibly add component of this style, if I haven't already.

Really, if you're going to go through this entire conversation with a completely purile view on the topic, than what's the point of the conversation?

There is a poll that shows that mature content (particularly Vile content) gets a bit of support when one can pop in, click "Yes", and leave without having to defend themselves from folks that would try to label them as immature perverts with a thing for "boobies". And that poll says you're a minority; A loud one that continue to repeat the same close-minded views again and again.

Surprise, surprise. I voted "Yes" because I'm not against publication of the material. It is that I'm against the publication of the material in core rule books, Dungeon magazine, and Dragon magazine. In fact, I voted that way on this thread as well. Oh, and by the way, that poll doesn't say that I'm a minority. In the text area, there are thread that note that they voted "Yes" but say that they have the same concerns with placing this material in mainstream D&D publications. Also, (a) I do agree with the opinions like Tiefling that it is a big assumption when you say that ENWorlds poster population completely mirrors the D&D community and (b) the poll is not set up to really gauge true opinions of "Vile" material.

It is just that Vile (or Mature) material should just stay out of the mainstream D&D sources so that it can target the largest population of the gaming public as possible. It should be in supplements (like Book of Vile Darkness) and a magazine dedicated to Vile material (call it "Black Dragon" or "Headless Honcho" or whatever) if you feel strongly that there is a core population of gamers that would support such a magazine. Thus, my opinions are not grounded in my desire for purity but really are based on trying to keep the D&D gaming population as broad as possible. At the very least, the "Vile" material is at leas polarizing to the D&D population. That really isn't good to the long-term health of the game.
 

Monte At Home said:


Glad you asked.

The answer is: A book filled with rules relating to evil characters (primarily NPCs).

The misconceptions of what the Book of Vile Darkness were so far afield that I'm surprised the book did as well as it did (it sold, and continues to sell, I'm told, very well--not that that benefits me in any way, but that's another issue...). I'm pleased that it did well, and am gratified to see it on a lot of DM's lists of favorite supplements.

But I never set out to write a book on mature roleplaying. That wasn't a part of my proposal at all. I proposed a book full of monsters, items, feats, prestige classes, yadda yadda, all geared toward evil characters, for DMs to give to NPCs. And, you'll see that's what indeed I wrote.

There were widespread misconceptions about the book:

1. That it would be some kind of guidebook for mature roleplaying.

2. That it would contain only the most horrible, evil, depraved stuff you could imagine for your game.

However, neither of these misconceptions were really the fault of the consumers.

After I proposed this book, and WotC decided to do it, people at WotC told me to make it really vile and nasty. I said that it would certainly have vile and nasty stuff in it. They said it would have a "for mature audiences" type label on it. I thought that was OK, because some material in it might be offensive to some people. Then, months later, I see the catalog copy and it gives the book this salacious spin, and implies that it will cover a wide variety of mature themes.

I shrug, and write the book I agreed to write.

I turn the book over, and get the feedback that it's not vile enough. I object, fearing the book becoming gratuitious. I'm actually told (really, this happened) to: "add in more sex and violence, but not in a gratuitious way."

So I explain what "gratuitious" means.

The book is then accepted, and kept pretty much intact. WotC added some stuff about torture methods and equipment, but that was it. However, they continue to push the book as being "mature." The book, even before it comes out, causes a huge uproar and upsets many people.

Then the book comes out, and most people calmed down.

But back to those two misconceptions. I set out to create a book on game material for evil characters. Some--but not nearly all--of the material might be offensive to some readers and players. So in that way--and that way only--I would say that the book is for mature gamers. Not because the material is "mature," but because mature people can handle potentially offensive material appropriately. There's absolutely nothing "mature" about the cancer mage, but a mature gamer knows when and when not to add such a thing to his game.

As for the second misconception, clearly (I hope) not all the material in there is as depraved as one could make it. The vast majority, I think, can be added to a D&D game and not even really change the tenor of it. Curses, poisons, death-dealing spells, and so on are part and parcel of the game already. My goal was to create interesting and useful material. Some of it is fairly nasty, but much of it is no more depraved than the assassin or blackguard classes in the DMG.

However, both misconceptions led to some people being disappointed in the book. Either because it wasn't the guide to mature gaming that they wanted, or because it wasn't depraved enough. I feel badly about those disappointments, and I wish the book had been pushed for what it was, rather than what some people apparently wanted it to be.

So, when people talk about an "article on _genuine_ mature themes" (as opposed to what they found in the BoVD, I assume), or claim to write some evil material that is "far more vile" than the BoVD, I never really know how to react, since they play off of what many thought the BoVD was about, but in my mind never was.

Thanks for indulging me.

Edit: Took out some too-harsh comments about WotC.

Hey all,

This was posted in the "genuine_mature_content" thread by Monte and I really think this pertains to our discussion as well. Here was my response there:

Thanks for the clarification, Monte. It really helps to know what you consider the BoVD to mean. Wizards really did market it in a different way. After thinking about your comments, I realize that they manipulated the community in order to heighten sales. I guess they wanted their own version of the 80s witchhunt.

This type of thing offends me to no end. Before seeing your response, I had always wondered why you wrote a book that seemed so far out of touch with what we had been told to expect. To find out that your intentions had been different is a relief. And the book makes much more sense to me now.

However, I think it does show what WOTC considers "mature." Mr. Valterra may talk a lot about mature-themed supplements, but their actions surrounding the BoVD show that they are not capable to creating books that will live up to the name. Their definition of "mature" is flawed. They're like the dorks who start giggling when someone says, "boobies."

Of course, now that we know what WOTC marketing is doing, can we really trust the "fluff" talk surrounding 3.5.
 

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