Should this be fixed

If a player announces that his character attempts to leap a 200-foot deep chasm 200-feet across, do you just say "Roll a jump check" and shake your head, or do you first make certain that the player understands that the character cannot make the jump, and that you are playing for "keepsies"?RC

In our games it never even gets to the DM saying "Are you SURE? Really Sure?" Using the 200-ft wide chasm example (because we did have someone once who tried to do anything and everything, all the time.... and do it first, mind you), one of us would have invariably piped up with "Be sure to tie a rope around your waist so we can haul your battered corpse back up and loot it."

When you threaten someone's magical goodies/ancient family heirloom sword/holy underwear they suddenly get deadly logical.
 

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Cool!

My point in posting that was merely to point out the problem with (1) claiming that the DM didn't give enough information for the player to make rational decisions, and then, (2) claiming that it was "fairly foreign" for the DM to provide information affecting decision making.

I mean, how is the DM supposed to "win" against such logic? She's damned -- and the player is "right" -- no matter how much or how little information she provides!

Thank you, but No.

The DM did fine in this situation, AFAICT...better, in fact, than many would do.


RC
 

This is just her second time and her first time DMing 3.5 so she she has made some mistakes that have come back to bite her in the ass.

For example she allowed the player playing the warlock to take the feat double shot and fire two eldritch blasts around. At fourth level he was doing around 35 points of damage a round. The dwarf rogue was giving a tattoo that allows him to have mischance of being hit of 40% every time.

She also did something I tried to talk her out of which was make the characters a 42 point buy at creation.

I am ninth level and my wizard has a 24 intelligence because I build it with three levels of human paragon and I have a diadem of intelligence of plus 2.

Wow. I think a reset might be needed, unless you like gaming like that.

When I DM, I stick mostly to the "core rules" (3.5e DMG + PHB + Monster books + setting), to avoid issues like this, where power levels are off compared to how the games was originally intended, and it's hard to figure out the right challenges.
 

Cool!

My point in posting that was merely to point out the problem with (1) claiming that the DM didn't give enough information for the player to make rational decisions, and then, (2) claiming that it was "fairly foreign" for the DM to provide information affecting decision making.

I mean, how is the DM supposed to "win" against such logic? She's damned -- and the player is "right" -- no matter how much or how little information she provides!

Thank you, but No.

The DM did fine in this situation, AFAICT...better, in fact, than many would do.


RC

You're right, of course. In fact, the very notion of what constitutes a "rational decision" is subjective. Here's where group consensus is important. By that I mean the group sitting at that table.

You can lead a horse to water... but you can't make him see that, no, he probably shouldn't attempt forging the rapids in a canoe he just fashioned from his (poor) Nature/Survival check.

Or something to that effect.

We eventually just stopped trying to group-correct ours and grabbed another beer and settled in for the inevitable comedy that was unfolding before our very eyes. Hey, dinner AND a show!
 

"She informed the players that the items were not evil" is foreign to you?
Yes. I play a game in which the players' make the evaluative judgements.

Especially in light of your comment upthread to the effect that it was the GM's fault due to failing to communicate the campaign norms, which those items you quoted were in response to.
You may be mistaking me for Eamon. Upthread, I said that a GM who places necromantic treasure in a game with a player who has made it clear that his/her player hates necromancy has (whether deliberately or carelessly) seeded a conflict. I did XP Eamon, but for the post where s/he suggested that the description "miscommunication" was perhaps not quite the right word.
 

This way of approaching the game is all fairly foreign to me. I'm used to the GM having the primary responsibility for presenting the gameworld, but the players having the primary responsibility for interpreting it in moral/political terms - so, for example, if the GM establishes a group of wizards who are both necromancers and (ostensibly) lawful good I assume that it is up to the players to decide whether they morally approve of those wizards or regard them as wicked defilers of corpses.

I don't see why what these other posters are saying should be foreign. Between being clear on what the game world norms are and giving a PC second chances to rethink courses of action that may not be ideal, the DM is still letting the player make the PC's decisions and act on them - deluded though they may be considering they are in opposition to actual truths in the game in question. I think there's less a difference than you seem to suggest in what's going on.
 

You may be mistaking me for Eamon. Upthread, I said that a GM who places necromantic treasure in a game with a player who has made it clear that his/her player hates necromancy has (whether deliberately or carelessly) seeded a conflict. I did XP Eamon, but for the post where s/he suggested that the description "miscommunication" was perhaps not quite the right word.

I don't think she was careless or being deliberate. In game since the dwarf killed the necromancer and he was brought back we have worked with him. Including the dwarf. His stand on necromancy is evil has not been brought up in over a year.

She really thought that at this point it was a nonissue. Also I don't think she expected the sneakiness that went on with it. If any other player did something like what the dwarf did that player would have thrown a screaming fit over it.

Most of the players were willing to let what happen stand it was one player who was upset over losing the treasure. And the DM was wondering if she should fix it some how by giving us some kind of extra treasure to replace what was lost.
 

Wow. I think a reset might be needed, unless you like gaming like that.

When I DM, I stick mostly to the "core rules" (3.5e DMG + PHB + Monster books + setting), to avoid issues like this, where power levels are off compared to how the games was originally intended, and it's hard to figure out the right challenges.

Some reset has been done. She's fixed the two eldrtich blasts per round, I have retired the wizard and brought in a lower point buy sorcerer.

We will see where we go from here.
 

I don't think she was careless or being deliberate. In game since the dwarf killed the necromancer and he was brought back we have worked with him. Including the dwarf. His stand on necromancy is evil has not been brought up in over a year.

She really thought that at this point it was a nonissue.
That's fair enough. Like I said upthread, it's not my goal and is none of my business to pass judgement on your friend(s) or your group, and I apologise if I seemed to fail in that. I was only trying to comment in a more abstract way on the issue as it came across in your earlier posts.
 

Between being clear on what the game world norms are and giving a PC second chances to rethink courses of action that may not be ideal, the DM is still letting the player make the PC's decisions and act on them
Again, to be clear, I'm wanting to respond here not to the particular course of action that Elf Witch's roommate took - I wasn't there, I don't know any of the people involved, nor what the dynamics of the group are, nor how they like to play RPGs - I'm just trying to present my own reflections on GMing practice which have been triggered by the OP.

To me, a Wisdom check suggests that the GM is trying to resolve something in the gameworld - a niggling urge, for example, at the back of the PC's mind, or the hairs standing up on the back of the PC's neck. I prefer a game where that sort of thing is reserved for Perception and Insight/Sense Motive, but not for issue of moral/aesthetic evaluation, in respect of which as GM I leave matters up to my players and as a player I want the GM to leave matters up to me.

If I'm playing and the GM thinks I'm doing something that is silly either in the sense that it has obvious consequences ingame that I may have forgotten about (eg I mention my PC bringing out a ham sandwhich because I forgot, last session, that we were told the duke is vegetarian) then I would rather the GM just say something - a stat check seems unnecessary (given that the forgetfulness is clearly on the part of the player, not the PC). Or, if the GM can see some player conflict brewing among the players and wants to issue a caution, just do it - again, calling for a stat check is not how I would generally go about it. Again, the problem here is not the PC's lack of insight or awareness, but the player being about to do something silly. So why punt it back into the gameworld and the PC's stats?

More generally, the approaches that I described as somewhat foreign to me seem to be premised on an approach to the game where the norms/values of the gameworld are determined by the GM, the players' role is to accept and explore them, and conflicts of value among the players and/or GM are sublimated into ingame issues via alignment rules, Wisdom checks etc. Obviously I'm aware that such approaches to the game occur - when I say they're foreign to me I don't mean that I've never heard of them. (For example, something like this approach seems to have been dominant in letters to Dragon magazine at least around the mid- to late-80s, and also seemed to be fairly standard in a lot of 2nd ed play.)

When I say that it's foreign to m, I mean that it's very different from the way I prefer to go about RPGing. I've never seen any evidence that the "sublimation of conflict via alignment rules" approach to handling disagreements at the table is an effective one. And as a GM, I want my players to decide what is valuable in the gameworld, and what is not (so, for example, and as has happened in games I've run, the PCs, whether indvidually or as a group, can decide that prudence requires compromise with Vecna, or that their duty is to oppose heaven and work with a god exiled by heaven, or that the slaughter of unconscious hobgoblin captives is a legitimate response to depradations inflicted).
 

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