Shouldn't Prestige Classes be done differently?

[Mark Causey]

If you want a simple answer to the problem, make a list of standard feats that these organizations encourage, and maybe a cheap wondrous item to emulate an ability, and have the organizations teach on that list and hand out the magic items when someone reachs that level.

Feats are where the answer to the question from previous editions:

Why is my fighter/spellcaster just like that fighter/spellcaster?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Let's say I have about twenty organizations, guilds, secret societies and cults I want to stat out. Not a large number, really. These are groups whose membership is fairly open to different classes. So I craft 4 prestige classes each, with each prestige class being a 5 or 10 level class. That's 80 prestige classes! Not an efficient way of solving what should be a simple problem.

Well, Building 20 PrC's isn't that easy, either. Especially if you want each of them to be usefull for all base classes.

Then of course, there's the question: Do they all need their own PrC's? Does the local wizard's guild need a Guild Wizard PrC? Does the thieves' guild need the Guild Thief? Does the assassins' guild need a PrC that is useful to fighters-turned-assassins, wizards-turned-assassins, shugenja-turned-assassins and whatever-turned-assassins?

I think not. A guild thief is just a rogue specialized in stealing (sleight of hands, open lock, and stuff to help with these) who joined a guild. An assassin is just a guy who can be hired to kill people.


If the members of the Silent Blade assassins' guild are known to be silent spellcasting killers, you should create a PrC mainly for Rogue/Wizards who get the ability to cast spells without verbal component, and other things like that.

If you want something that works for almost everyone and gives you a certain advantage - that's what feats are for.

 

[DaveMage]

How about 1-level prestige classes? Most members of the organization, guild, cult or whatever take this prestige class, but it is only a single level. That might nicely tie together the members while still having each be quite different. I might prefer this to having five or six prestige classes for EACH organization (ala Harpers).

In fact, it might be a better way for me to do most prestige classes in my game. Entry to each isn't very difficult, but entry to several might be a big strain on skill points & feats.

EDIT: The basic reason that I shy away from the idea of feat-based organization is that feats shouldn't be as powerful or as "packaged" as a level in prestige class. For instance, I have a group in my game that worship a reptilian water goddess. I want the members to be transformed into the reptilian subtype and gain water breathing. Too much for a feat/feats to do.

This last thing sounds exactly like what Bastion Press did with prestige races. As Altamont Ravenard (I think) suggested, you basically meet certain basic requirements, then pay an XP cost, and then you get benefits which could be similar to what you describe above.

Prestige races appear in the Oathbound campaign setting as well as in (I believe) a 3E Dragon Magazine (don't remember the issue # off hand).

 

[MerricB]

For those unaware of the Living Greyhawk campaign run by the RPGA, it uses organisations extensively to allow access to unusual feats, prestige classes, items and spells.

Here are a couple of examples from my home region of Perrenland. (Note that these are 3e organisations, the 3.5e update is coming later this year).

Sacraal Trekker of the Old Kerk
Membership Requirements: Must be member of the Juistmenn of the Old Kerk; Knowledge (religion) 1 rank.
Joining Costs: 6 weeks of study (6TU)
Ongoing Costs: 1 week per year (1TU) and 1% of all earnings
Benefits:
Access to the Hospitaler PrC
Access to feats: Reach Spell, Extra Music, Animal Defiance
Access to spells: Burial Blessing, Camouflage, Divine Sacrifice, Focussing Chant, etc.
Access to items: Exotic Incense, Gold Holy Symbol and Field Brazier
Access to magic items: Greater Holy Symbol, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Protection from Evil
Access to +2 armour upgrade or purchase

Juistmenn of the Old Kerk
Membership Requirements: Must worship a deity of the Old Kerk.
Joining costs: 3 weeks of study (3TU)
Benefits
Access to items: Healing Salve, Suregrip and Vigil Candle
Access to magic items: potion of heroism, potion of neutralise poison, phylactery of faithfulness

Opal Zauber
Membership Requirements: ability to cast 1st level arcane spells
Joining Costs: 8 weeks training (8TU), 500 gp, 1 perrenland favour, pledge allegiance to the voorman
Ongoing Costs: 2 weeks service/year (2TU)
Benefits
Access to PrC: Mage of the Arcane Order, Mindbender
Access to magic items: wand of alter self; wand of magic missile; vest of resistance +2; headband of intellect +4; cloak of charisma +4
Access to feats: chain spell; co-operative spell; extra slot; extra spell; reach spell; subdual substitution; sculpt spell
Access to Spells: fire orb, acid orb, fiery burst, etc.
(a few other minor benefits)

###

Notice that the Opal Zauber organisation allows access to 2 prestige classes.

Magic item access is also quite restricted in Living Greyhawk - you can purchase or create potions and scrolls of less than 750 gp; +1 weapons, +1 armour, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armour, +1 bracers of armour, cloak of resistance +1, or a +2 stat item, but that's about it. After that, you need an organisation or an adventure to give you access...

Cheers!

 

[Ranger REG]

The problem with d20 Modern being, it seems really boring to go through so many "generic" class levels to get to the interesting stuff. Unless you're intentionally starting a campaign at high levels, or doing really quick level advancement (like 1 level per game).

Actually, I don't find it boring, having played negative level characters from the good ole days of Greyhawk Adventures book.

It's refreshing to see class-by-ability rather than traditional class-by-archetypes.

 

[woodelf]

I don't see what having a Prestige Class has to do with being in a Guild. Sure, it makes sense that most of the members of the Assassins' Guild have the Assassin PrC, but I'm not quite clear on why this would need to be a strict requirement. I'm afraid there's not enough outside the box thinking going on here. Wouldn't the Assassins' Guild need to have members that can do things other than kill people? I imagine they would have need for administrators, negotiators, possibly potion and magic item makers, etc., not to mention non-killing folks that might be called on to steal stuff, etc.

Perhaps the real problem here is the focus of the group. If your Assassins' Guild is really just like organized labor or something, where everyone in the organization does the same thing (I know, they have administrators too), then that's one thing. But guilds in and of themselves are not inherently homogenous. If you want to make them homogenous in your campaign, then you almost have to force everyone in the guild to join your PrC. If the guild is instead a collection of people that have a common goal, live in a certain area, whatever, then I don't see why you need to make the PrC a requirement.

For example, let's use the Assassins' Guild. If you go the homogenous route, everyone in the organization takes the Assassin PrC. That means that nearly everyone has rogue levels, and probably a bit of fighter or whatnot, but in essence, they are very close to being the same sort of character. This is pretty boring. If you go with the more diverse approach, most (let's say 75%) of the population takes the Assassin PrC - these are the 'rank and file' who go out on jobs. The rest of the guild is made up of specialists - wizards (creating magic items and potions), rogues (stealing stuff, gathering info), bards (lots of possibilities here), fighters (guard duty, protection, enforcers), clerics (healing, creating poisons), etc., who perform functions other than going out on jobs.

I find the diverse approach a lot more palletable. With the homogenous guild, you pigeon-hole every member into a specific class grouping, and most of the characters in your game probably can't join the guild. Maybe that's what you want. But if you really want a good portion (or all) of your characters to join a guild, consider the diverse approach (rank and file with specialists). This better fits a campaign concept of a guild as opposed to a stricly metagaming one.

I thought the original poster's point was precisely this. That is, that having everyone have a minimum level of commonality, in terms of skill-set, was good, but having them all be 75%-90% the same was too homogenous.

I think the solution is prestige classes that are less tailored for a specific class or combination of classes. So, frex, an assassin PrC that (1) has requirements that can be realistically met by someone with levels in any class or combination of classes, and at similar levels (say, between 5th and 8th, depending on what class you're coming from); and (2) provides assassin-like abilities in such a way that they build with whatever abilities you come into it with.

Since i've just mentioned it, let's whip up an example of this New and Improved assassin PrC.

Prereqs: Dex 13+; 20 ranks total in Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, & Spot; pass the guild initiation test
Abilities: at each level, the assassin gets a special ability from a list. These special abilities include abilities that stack with sneak attack, or substitute for sneak attack; metamagic-like abilities that target and hide spells; alchemical/poison abilities; disguise/stealth abilities; and "dirty fighting" combat maneuvers.

Obviously, i've just sketched this out very roughly. But the idea is to provide a class that is useful to everyone, to varying degrees. Anybody can take a level or two of sneak-attack damage; those who already have it, or get it as an assassin, can then modify it; a spellcaster can use his spells to assassinate; anybody can improve their relevant skills; those with the ability to get into a melee fight can pick up some abilites to boost this. Note how, almost no matter what your previous class, at least two of these tracks will be suitable/sensible. And while it'll be easier to get in in the first place if you've got a bunch of rogue levels, even a single-classed fighter with a reasonable Int could manage it by 8th or 10th level.

And thus, everyone in your setting's assassin's guild could have at least a level of "assassin", so you'd know that every member had the rudimentary skills of, well, an assassin--because of both the requirements, and what they've gained from the PrC.

At least, that's how *i* think PrCs should work.