D&D 3E/3.5 Shuriken have changed in 3.5E

[Ottergame]

One thing I need to stress. The reason TWF did not work with ranged weapons in 3.0 is because of the mention in the heavy crossbow entry saying it does not. I don't recall what Wizards called it, but it is something like "implied restrictions". The mention of TWF only working with melee weapons is only mentioned once in the PHB, and that is under the rules for the crossbow. Wizards decided that that is how the TWF feat would work in 3.0, that it did not apply to ranegd weapons.

HOWEVER, again, that changed with 3.5. They deliberatly changed the wording to allow it to work with ranged weapons in the revisions. No where does it mention that there is a restriction on TWF only working with melee weapons in the revivsion, therefore, there is no such restriction. The Two Weapon Fighting feat DOES apply to ranged weapons and melee weapons equally.

 

[Ottergame]

His penalties are -6/-6/-6/-6. He takes a penalty of -2 on all attacks for TWFing with a light weapon in his off-hand; he takes a -2 penalty on all attacks for Flurrying; and he takes a -2 on all attacks for Rapid Shot.

-Hyp.

Actually, it is a total of -2 -2 -2 -4. That takes into account the BAB of +2 for a 3rd level monk. And TWF only has a penalty of -2 on the offhand attacks if both weapons are light and the user has the TWF feat. Assuming a monk attacks 3 times with his primary hand and once with his secondary hand, he would have -4 on all three primary attacks, and a -6 on the offhand attack.

EDIT: Oh dear, you are correct. Somehow I got it into my head that someone with the TWF feat and fighting with a light weapon has a -0 penalty on the primary attack and -2 on the offhand. Such a monk WOULD have -6 on all attacks.

 

[Jesuit]

3.5 PHB: Combat Chapter: Special Attacks: Two-Weapon Fighting:

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Something like that, you mean?

-Hyp.

Yes, something like that. Problem is that it says "when used in this manner." Using them "in this manner" implies that you are specifically using ranged weapons in the TWF ruleset, which to me disqualifies them being used in the Rapid Shot ruleset.

I understand that 3.5 rulings automatically take precedence over 3.0 rulings, but if something isn't stated as not being mutually exclusive, I am inclined to think that it is.

However, I will agree that there certainly is a case for seeing it your way. I just don't .

Edit: "Fighting with two weapons is not limited to melee weapons. Show me where in the book it says it is."

Otter, I'm not implying that TWF is limited to melee weapons, I'm implying that TWF and Rapid Shot and two different mechanics both intended to give you extra attacks with a weapon. The difference being that TWF is for Melee weapons with Range increments, and Rapid Shot for true Ranged weapons. I'm not saying you are wrong, this is just my interpretation of the game mechanic.

 

[Ottergame]

Yes, something like that. Problem is that it says "when used in this manner." Using them "in this manner" implies that you are specifically using ranged weapons in the TWF ruleset, which to me disqualifies them being used in the Rapid Shot ruleset.

I understand that 3.5 rulings automatically take precedence over 3.0 rulings, but if something isn't stated as not being mutually exclusive, I am inclined to think that it is.

However, I will agree that there certainly is a case for seeing it your way. I just don't .

Except there is NOTHING anywhere that implies that Rapid Shot cannot be used with Two Weapon Fighting.

 

[Jesuit]

Except there is NOTHING anywhere that implies that Rapid Shot cannot be used with Two Weapon Fighting.

There is a certain amount of interpretation involved in any Feat reading. They are two different methods of achieving the same result, which is an extra attack with a Thrown Weapon. It's stacking bonuses. I view Rapid Shot + TWF as both granting the same thing, so they don't stack. It's great if you don't see it that way, but I'm not here to try and convince you. I'm just offering an opinion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The difference being that TWF is for Melee weapons with Range increments...

Huh?

No, it's for weapons.

Melee, thrown, projectile, whatever.

Throwing a shuriken with each hand does not make them 'melee weapons with range increments'. They're thrown weapons. You're specifically allowed to throw a shuriken as an off-hand attack.

Throwing a shuriken is an attack with a ranged weapon; Rapid Shot allows you to make an extra attack with a ranged weapon.

Flurry of Blows allows you to make an extra attack (or two), as long as every attack in the Flurry is with a special monk weapon or unarmed strike. Shuriken are special monk weapons.

So I can throw a shuriken with my primary hand (normal attack), throw a shuriken with my off-hand (TWF rules), throw an shuriken as an extra attack with a ranged weapon (Rapid Shot), and throw a shuriken as an extra attack with a special monk weapon (Flurry of Blows).

None of these effects disallow any of the others.

-Hyp.

 

[Ottergame]

There is a certain amount of interpretation involved in any Feat reading. They are two different methods of achieving the same result, which is an extra attack with a Thrown Weapon. It's stacking bonuses. I view Rapid Shot + TWF as both granting the same thing, so they don't stack. It's great if you don't see it that way, but I'm not here to try and convince you. I'm just offering an opinion.

Like all oppinions, some are less right that others.

Rapid shot allows you to make an additional ranged attack per round. Two weapon fighting lets you make one additional attack per round (melee or ranged), though in your off hand and at a reduced strength bonus to damage. This really is like using Two Weapon Fighting with Flurry. They each produce an additional attack, but with different results. A monk using flurry will get his full strength bonus with all the attacks in a flurry. If he uses an offhand attack (either unarmed or with a monk weapon), he gets half his strength bonus. By your same reasoning, you can't Flurry and Rapid Shot at the same time, because those two abilities are actually MORE similar than TWF and Rapid, because both will get the full strength bonus to damage.

 

[rangerjohn]

shuriken is a ranged weapon.

twf never states the need to use it with melee weapons.

SRD:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.

RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

My only question is how would you reload the crossbow, to use rapid shot?

Now, this wouldn't apply with, shuriken, or daggers, sai, handaxes, etc. If you had the quick draw feat.

 

[Ottergame]

My only question is how would you reload the crossbow, to use rapid shot?

Now, this wouldn't apply with, shuriken, or daggers, sai, handaxes, etc. If you had the quick draw feat.

Well, this will assume you are using pre-loaded crossbows. You still need two hands to reload them, so you will need to drop one to reload the other. So, regardless of your BAB or TWF feats, you'll only get to shoot one of those crossbows once in a round.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My only question is how would you reload the crossbow, to use rapid shot?

It's a DC30 Perform: Juggling check

Seriously, though, if you've got a spare 20k gp, I can show you a neat trick with two Gloves of Storing...

Now, this wouldn't apply with, shuriken, or daggers, sai, handaxes, etc. If you had the quick draw feat.

Don't even need the feat for shuriken...

-Hyp.