D&D 3.x Shuriken have changed in 3.5E
- Thread starter krazykid
- Start date
Not sure if this helps, but Rapid Shot clearly states that it allows for one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon.
In the equipment chapter, it clearly states that ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Also in the equipment chapter, under Crossbow, Heavy it states that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce these penalties because it represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons.
With the Shuriken, it seems that as written Rapid Shot and not TWF would apply. With Crossbows, the argument could me made I suppose that the writers simply meant the reduction in attack penalties, but to me it looks like they meant the feat in general didn't work for ranged weapons.
My conclusion is that you can only use the quickdraw/rapid-shot combination if you are using weapons that you can not use effectively in melee (darts, javelins, shuriken, etc) and that you can only use the quickdraw/TWF throwing combination if you are using melee weapons with a range increment.
Flurry is a special case, however I think the rule still applies in regards to throwing. You obviously can Flurry with Shuriken, but you have to apply Rapid Shot and not TWF for additional attacks per round. If you used Sai, you would apply TWF and not Rapid Shot as Sai is a Melee weapon (which has a range increment).
Just my 2 cents.
In the equipment chapter, it clearly states that ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Also in the equipment chapter, under Crossbow, Heavy it states that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce these penalties because it represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons.
With the Shuriken, it seems that as written Rapid Shot and not TWF would apply. With Crossbows, the argument could me made I suppose that the writers simply meant the reduction in attack penalties, but to me it looks like they meant the feat in general didn't work for ranged weapons.
My conclusion is that you can only use the quickdraw/rapid-shot combination if you are using weapons that you can not use effectively in melee (darts, javelins, shuriken, etc) and that you can only use the quickdraw/TWF throwing combination if you are using melee weapons with a range increment.
Flurry is a special case, however I think the rule still applies in regards to throwing. You obviously can Flurry with Shuriken, but you have to apply Rapid Shot and not TWF for additional attacks per round. If you used Sai, you would apply TWF and not Rapid Shot as Sai is a Melee weapon (which has a range increment).
Just my 2 cents.
Ottergame
First Post
A 3rd level human monk with Rapid Shot (and point blank shot) and Two Weapon Fighting could Flurry and throw 4 shuriken in a single round. However, he is at pretty steep penalties for doing so. An attack bonus of -2 -2 -2 -4 (One attack as normal, one for flurry, one for an offhand attack, one for rapid shot) before taking dex into consideration, whereas a monk using Flurry with one weapon would have +0 +0.
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Ottergame said:
I disagree.The description of Rapid Shot didn't change in 3.5, it still gives an extra attack only with Ranged Weapons. A Hand Axe/Dagger/Club or any other Melee weapon with a range increment is still not a ranged weapon, as strictly defined in the RAW.
The text under crossbows was removed because ambidexterity no longer exists, not because crossbows can now be considered melee weapons. I also think that due to TWF giving an extra attack with an off-hand weapon, you can extrapolate that doing so precludes gaining an additional attack with Rapid Shot because you can't be using an offhand melee weapon and an offhand ranged weapon at the same time. It's one or the other.
Isn't the general rule of thumb about 3.5 to use 3.0 rulings anyway unless they are specifically updated? The only way I could see a Monk being able to Flurry with Shurikens and use TWF in addition to Rapid Shot was if somewhere in 3.5 you could find a rule stating that all light ranged weapons can be treated as light melee weapons for the purposes of TWF.
Again, just my opinion.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Ottergame said:
His penalties are -6/-6/-6/-6. He takes a penalty of -2 on all attacks for TWFing with a light weapon in his off-hand; he takes a -2 penalty on all attacks for Flurrying; and he takes a -2 on all attacks for Rapid Shot.
-Hyp.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Jesuit said:
3.5 PHB: Combat Chapter: Special Attacks: Two-Weapon Fighting:
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
Something like that, you mean?
-Hyp.
shuriken is a ranged weapon.
twf never states the need to use it with melee weapons.
SRD:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
twf never states the need to use it with melee weapons.
SRD:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Ottergame
First Post
Jesuit said:
Yes, I know, and if you re-read my post, I said shuriken. Those most certainly ARE ranged weapons.
Fighting with two weapons is not limited to melee weapons. Show me where in the book it says it is.
No, the rule of thumb is to use the new rules as printed, unless something is addressed in the 3.5 FAQ. The rules for two weapon fighting changed between editions, the old rulings do not apply.
Again, TWF no longer applies just to melee weapons. It did in 3.0, it does NOT in 3.5, which is what this thread is about.
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