Siege problems with Power Attack

[Darklone]

Did anyone ever check how thick a wall, let alone a gate has to be to keep someone with Power Attack, Rage and some twohanded weapon from hacking a hole into it in one round?

 

[Darkness]

Let's see...

The siege engine with the highest damage, the heavy catapult, does 6d6 damage (DMG, p.100). That's an average of 21 points.

Level 1 half-orc barbarian, Str 18 (22 while raging) with a greataxe and Power Attack (for -1 to hit/+2 damage): 1d12+8 (1d12+11 while raging). That's an average of 14.5 points (17.5 while raging).

Assuming the same Strength, feats and non-magical weapon, the same character will do 18.5 (21.5 while raging) by level 3 (using Power Attack for -3 to hit/+6 damage).
Higher levels will drastically increase this. (Level 11: Str 30 [16base+2race+2levels+4belt+6greaterrage], a +2 greataxe and power attack for -11/+22: 1d12+39. And if he uses an adamantine axe, objects with hardness ratings of less than 20 will crumble when he as much as looks at them.)


Daaamn...
And some people were afraid of level 16 monks using ki strike (adamantine) to punch through walls.
But it seems that, at these levels, you're expected to be able to go through many walls. (Not to forget... Level 9 wizard: teleport. Even though it's been nerfed. And there's other stuff as well.)

 

[Darklone]

Daaamn...
And some people were afraid of level 16 monks using ki strike (adamantine) to punch through walls.
But it seems that, at these levels, you're expected to be able to go through many walls. (Not to forget... Level 9 wizard: teleport. Even though it's been nerfed. And there's other stuff as well.)

I don't have a problem with lvl10 dudes... but a level 6 barbarian who breaks a ****ing Castle wall in a matter of seconds... Argh.

I think I gonna houserule power attack as not feasible against objects.

 

[DMScott]

Siege weapons are for the little people, they don't do terribly impressive damage on a player character scale. They're around so all those 1st level Warriors and Commoners in your army have something to do during a siege.

As for walls, the weakest 1' thick wall in the DMG has hardness 8 and 90 HP per 10' by 10' section. So you need to do 98 damage to get through in one round. Of course, this is also one of "DM fiat" areas of the rules - you only get to bash down the wall if the DM thinks your weapon is appropriate, so don't try this with arrows. City walls start at 470 HP, so you're probably not going through them "in seconds" with your barbarian, at least not below the levels where the Wizard in your group makes normal materials basically obsolete as defenses.

Doors are a lot easier - a strong wooden door is just hardness 5 and 20 HP, so 25 damage a round and you're through. That you can bash down quick at fairly low level (and that's why fire departments still use axes).

 

[Pielorinho]

As for walls, the weakest 1' thick wall in the DMG has hardness 8 and 90 HP per 10' by 10' section. So you need to do 98 damage to get through in one round.

And any castle whose walls are 1' thick is just asking for trouble. A good castle wall ought to be at least 10' thick; 908 damage in a single attack is difficult to pull off.

If you want to house-rule this, you could say that slashing and piercing weapons are for the most part ineffective against stone walls (barring cool magic), and that bludgeoning weapons with a hardness less than the wall's hardness take half as much damage as they deal. A barbarian who punches a wall for 25 points of damage takes 12 points of damage herself.

Daniel

 

[Darklone]

10ft by 10ft has 90 hitpoints?

And if he "only" wants to open a 5ft*5ft hole ? a quarter?

But ok... inches sounds nice. Still, the castle gate is asking for trouble.

 

[Staffan]

As for walls, the weakest 1' thick wall in the DMG has hardness 8 and 90 HP per 10' by 10' section. So you need to do 98 damage to get through in one round.

That's 98 points in one hit. Hardness applies on a per hit basis, not per round. So, let's say we have a 5th level barbarian with Str 18, power attack, rage (total Str 22) and a +1 greataxe. Since the wall has no AC to speak of, we can ignore the actual hitting part and just channel everything into power attack. The base damage is 1d12+10, or 1d12+20 when power attacking as much as possible. Removing the hardness of 8, that's still 1d12+12 or an average of 18.5 per hit. It will take him 5 rounds to get through the wall.

 

[S'mon]

That's 98 points in one hit. Hardness applies on a per hit basis, not per round. So, let's say we have a 5th level barbarian with Str 18, power attack, rage (total Str 22) and a +1 greataxe. Since the wall has no AC to speak of, we can ignore the actual hitting part and just channel everything into power attack. The base damage is 1d12+10, or 1d12+20 when power attacking as much as possible. Removing the hardness of 8, that's still 1d12+12 or an average of 18.5 per hit. It will take him 5 rounds to get through the wall.

A reasonable house rule for attacking walls with non-siege-weapons would be that the weapon needs to do enough damage in 1 attack to 'kill' the wall - ie 98 damage to breach a 1' stone wall, 908 damage to breach a 10' thick stone wall - otherwise no effect.

IMC I give iron-bound castle doors hardness 10, power-attacking fighters can still break them down pretty fast.

 

[The Souljourner]

Regardless of house rules, a lone barbarian chopping at a castle gate is going to die real quick-like. Barrels of boiling oil, arrows from slits, and sharp things on long sticks will make quick work of any potential siege character, unless they're very high level.

Stealth is a much better option, but much less impressive.

-The Souljourner

 

[clark411]

Any castle wall in DnD that a ruler wants to not be knocked down by a magically inclined and powerful person will be magically treated... Rulers are powerful people, and generally magically inclined as well eh? (well, not Forsaker rulers)

If you haven't, check the Stronghold Builder's Guide for details on wondrous architecture. It won't make the thing impervious, but it will make it stronger.

Really, in general walls aren't that impressive. If a level 5 wizard can just fly over it, I can see a level 3 or level 5 barbarian smashing through it. Both are taking a serious risk doing so.. the wizard, even invisible, will possibly be seen (See Invisible is a YES SIR in defending vs sieges), and for the barbarian.. well, the wall only needs to last long enough for the boiling oil to be poured. Beyond that, medieval castles were designed so every bit at the bottom of the wall was able to be hit by multiple archers. It really stinks to hit a wall, then get targetted by 6 archers, all trained for wall defense (hello Point Blank Shot).