*sigh*.....OK, what's an "advanced class?"

[jaerdaph]

I agree. I just never saw much of a point in the nomenclature. There's no mechanical difference between advanced and prestige classes; they should be called the same thing. There's no reason you can't have some advanced classes that are easier to get into and more general than other advanced classes. Mind you, I don't much care that they use the two terms, but it does lead to this kind of confusion.

The differences are subtle, but I see your point. Entry into an Advanced class can be accomplished at a lower character level than a modern Prestige class, and Basic and Advanced classes are 10-level classes, modern Prestige classes have only five levels (at least in WotC d20 Modern products).

Basic Class -> AdC -> PrC is suppposed to represent greater specialization.

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

The differences are subtle, but I see your point. Entry into an Advanced class can be accomplished at a lower character level than a modern Prestige class, and Basic and Advanced classes are 10-level classes, modern Prestige classes have only five levels (at least in WotC d20 Modern products).

Basic Class -> AdC -> PrC is suppposed to represent greater specialization.

Well, in Dawning Star, we actually have a 10-level prestige class. We hemmed and hawed: Should we call it an advanced class since it's 10 levels? Should we trim it down to 5 levels. At some point, I said: "I will not be a slave to semantics." The class is what it is and works well on all fronts.

 

[Roudi]

Some RPGObjects products (Blood & Fists comes to mind first) have 10-level Prestige Classes, even alongside 10-level Advanced Classes.

In my opinion, the "class progression" in the d20 Modern system is meant to go from general to specialized. Basic classes are very general, and prestige classes are very specialized. Advanced classes represent a middle ground: somewhat specialized, but still covering broad ground within its specialization. The Soldier, for example, can model a well-disciplined US Army Ranger, or a hardened lone mercenary, or a guerilla fighter. The Martial Artist covers some immensely broad ground in one tiny little class (perhaps too broad, thus why I like Blood & Fists for adding some well-deserved depth to modern martial arts). In my opinion, the number of levels in these classes should depend only on the number of levels it takes to do the class justice. Ten is a good number for most classes. Twenty can model classes that people tend to stick with for a very long time, and where persistence leads to some incredible abilities, but these don't often have a place in Modern. If the class requires three, five, seven, eight, twelve, fifteen, or however many levels to accurately model, use however many is necessary. The 10-and-5 rule is something WotC seems to adhere to, but we shouldn't find ourselves bound by their standards in every regard.

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

If the class requires three, five, seven, eight, twelve, fifteen, or however many levels to accurately model, use however many is necessary. The 10-and-5 rule is something WotC seems to adhere to, but we shouldn't find ourselves bound by their standards in every regard.

Here, here!

 

[takyris]

More recent books may invalidate this, but my impression was that the main difference between Basic, Advanced, and Prestige classes was that Basic classes went Talent, Feat, Talent, Feat, whereas Advanced classes went Talent, Talent, Feat, Talent, Talent, Feat, and Prestige classes were generally all Talents.

 

[Roudi]

takyris, most Advanced and Prestige classes also tend to have static abilities at each level, as opposed to choosing talents from trees (like the base classes). Personally, I wish more Advanced Classes had talent trees.

Most AdvCs and PrCs tend to earn bonus feats every three levels. No idea why, but I think the rationale is that the class is supposed to focus on its own abilities more than feats which, in most cases, members of other classes could also take.

 

[takyris]

Roudi,

I apologize for not making myself clear. When I wrote "Talent", I meant a non-feat class-based ability. So, the "Living Weapon 1d6" and "Flying Kick" abilities that the Martial Artist gets at 1st and 2nd level, for example, were talents, the way I was using them. I think we're actually saying the same thing,

If you want to use different nomenclature, you could go with "Talent" (an ability limited to this class, pick-able from a list), "Feat" (an ability received as a bonus that anyone can get as a normal feat, should they choose to do so), or "Class Ability" (an ability that is limited to this class but not one of several options that could be chosen).

In that vein, basic classes go Talent, Feat, Talent, Feat, and advanced classes go Ability, Ability, Feat, Ability, Ability, Feat. Prestige classes are either all ability or, in some cases, a mixture of ability and talents (PrCs that include "Pick one of the following abilities", like some of the magical-item-creation classes, I think).

Generally speaking, Class Abilities are more limiting, because you can't choose from a list, but they also tend to be a bit better (although not all of them are, of course, or you'd have the uberclass) than Talents, which in turn tend to be a bit better than Bonus Feats. Limitation is the downside of specialization, here.

 

[C. Baize]

I agree. I just never saw much of a point in the nomenclature. There's no mechanical difference between advanced and prestige classes; they should be called the same thing. There's no reason you can't have some advanced classes that are easier to get into and more general than other advanced classes. Mind you, I don't much care that they use the two terms, but it does lead to this kind of confusion.

Actually... That's not true...

There is at least one mechanical difference straight out the gate...

Action Points.
Basic Classes get 5 + ½ Character Class (rounded down) per level.
Advanced Classes get 6 + ½ Character Class (rounded down) per level.
Prestige Classes get 7 + ½ Character Class (rounded down) per level.

It's a small mechanical difference... but a mechanical difference, nonetheless.

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Actually... That's not true...

There is at least one mechanical difference straight out the gate...

Action Points.
Basic Classes get 5 + ½ Character Class (rounded down) per level.
Advanced Classes get 6 + ½ Character Class (rounded down) per level.
Prestige Classes get 7 + ½ Character Class (rounded down) per level.

It's a small mechanical difference... but a mechanical difference, nonetheless.

Even so, that's a historical mechanical difference. There's no design necessity as to why an advanced class must get exactly 6+ action points and a prestige class must get exactly 7+, as long as they are otherwise balanced. In that light, it's no different than the historical difference as to the number of levels.

Advanced classes are necessarily mechanically different than basic classes because the former have pre-requisites. That's a fundamental distinction. I see a flavor distinction between advanced and prestige classes, but not a fundamental one. It would be easy enough to create a third-tier of classes that was fundamentally different, e.g., you must be character level 15+ to take them.

 

[C. Baize]

Even so, that's a historical mechanical difference. There's no design necessity as to why an advanced class must get exactly 6+ action points and a prestige class must get exactly 7+, as long as they are otherwise balanced. In that light, it's no different than the historical difference as to the number of levels.

Advanced classes are necessarily mechanically different than basic classes because the former have pre-requisites. That's a fundamental distinction. I see a flavor distinction between advanced and prestige classes, but not a fundamental one. It would be easy enough to create a third-tier of classes that was fundamentally different, e.g., you must be character level 15+ to take them.

You mean other than the Epic Classes which get 8 + ½ Character Class (rounded down) Action Points per level?