Signs your DM is an imcompetent twit.

[SableWyvern]

I don't have problem with bad DMing as such.

What I think is a problem is when you sit down with the DM time after time, offering constructive criticism and trying to help him, and each session he does exactly what you indicated he shouldn't.

 

[Piratecat]

Stop the insults, guys. This isn't a wrestling ring.

On a tangent, it does illustrate my theory that unusual or inaccurate opinions are often formed of posters after just a handful of threads; whether correct or not, a lot of folks aren't aware of the impression that they're sending.

Personally, I'd flee Doc's DM like a rabid puffin-dingo. There ARE bad DMs, and life's too short to keep playing with them.

 

[Poster Bard]

Edited- Sorry Piratecat. We posted at the same time.

 

[7thlvlDM]

Ever wonder if your DM is an incompetent boob? Well here are several hints taken from the latest DM I had the misfortune of working with that should help you decide.

Ok, I'm going to stick my neck out and make the claim that NONE of these points necessarily indicate a bad DM. In fact, I find a few of these comments a bit misinformed. People have different styles of play and if yours does not jive with the DM's, as others have suggested, run a game yourself!

> 1. Level every session or at least 3 out of every 5 sessions. This is up to and through 10th level.

I think this is normal and characters should level up about once an adventure. In 2nd edition, it took many game sessions to gain a level, but in this latest incarnation of the rules everything moves much faster (I, for one, find this refreshing). It means the heroes can get to fighting really epic villians much sooner.

Let's take a look at the numbers, shall we?

A 10th level character needs 10,000 more experience points to advance to 11th level. For a party of 4 characters, that's 40,000 xp.

According to the DM's Guide, if the average party level is 10, each CR 10 monster gives 3,000 xp. That means such a party would need to slay roughly 13 CR 10 monsters (e.g., clay golems) in one night to level up. That doesn't sound so implausable (for the clay golems, my group discovered that 3 successful touch attacks with tanglefoot bags will drop the golems' Dex to 0 and prevent it from moving).

> 2. 2nd level parties that kill chimeras that ambush them.

I've seen parties do remarkable things. Now, it could very well have been a cheesy battle, but I can also see how a smart party (even a 2nd level one) could take out Chimeras. You didn't mention how many there were, but since the Chimera has an intelligence of 4, they wouldn't be hard to outsmart.

> 3. 15th level foes with no lackies so the barbarian can easily grapple him and make him an esay target for the mage to blast to death. BTW the party was 8th level average here and there were only 3 characters.

Pride cometh before a fall. It is not too difficult for me to believe that a 15th level NPC would be without lackies. Lackies are not a prerequisite to be a high level foe.

> 4. Foes on the other hand so powerful a 15th level NPC Wizard needs to come along to save the day. Whichw as not really needed since the Lich had no spells preped even though she had to know we were walking around her pocket dimension.

Personally, I *hate* having my players' characters wade through mindless battles with hordes of kobolds before they gain enough experience to take on some exciting and actually *important* challenges. Why let them commit genicide on the irrelivant goblins when you can introduce them to liches, blackguard, demon lords, and dragons at first level? That doesn't mean they have to be able to beat them in single combat at first level, but let's begin an epic story right, shall we? A high level NPC tagging along is ok in my book so long as he's 1) there for a good reason, and 2) solely for support (i.e., does not steal the show, maybe he heals and casts combat enhancing spells.)

> 5. Paladins with no Code.

Some groups are hack-n-slashers, and role-playing a paladin is secondary. My group's paladin hasn't exactly been a model one, but the player is having fun and I'm not going to take away that fun just so we can stick by some rule in a book. The alignment system is really screwy anyways, and maybe he does have a code when it really counts...

> 6. Villages (population under 1000) that have multiple (at least 3) NPC's of 15th level and higher.

This is quite possible. If there's one 15th level NPC, he's likely to have a couple friends.

> 7. Campaign started with the "your all in jail for crimes you didnt commit" routine.

Most adventures don't start this way. I don't frown on innovation.

> 8. Who the Gods are in the world isnt introduced until 5 or 6 sessions in. This is really funny since it finally happened when I asked and I was running a figher wizard. You would think that the cleric, paladin, or druid would want or need this information.

As the Player's Handbook states in the intro to the chapter on religion "When you first play a character, it's fine to leave the details sketchy."

One of my players is pretty religious, and I get the feeling he's not too keen on discussing fake gods in a fantasy game, let alone having his character worship one. Since it hasn't been relivant to the story, I have never discussed the gods in my world. Perhaps there are none, perhaps there's only one.

> 9. Players that fall asleep and the DM says nothing.

This actually happened once in my group; we often play till 3am. I could tell one of my player's was drifting asleep and it was time to call it a night. We finished the encounter we were on without waking her and then wrapped up. People are human, it's just a game, and if someone is sleepy he or she is the one missing out.

I've played with some DMs that weren't the best, but cut those people who try some slack.

-7th

 

[7thlvlDM]

Personally, I'd flee Doc's DM like a rabid puffin-dingo. There ARE bad DMs, and life's too short to keep playing with them.

Just like the people who walked out on your first attemped at DMing Piratecat?

Only teasing, I ran Of Sound Mind without a single change. It's been years since I've run an adventure module that I didn't gut and replace 50% of the material first. Nice job.

-7th

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Thanks for the word of support PCat.

Stop the insults, guys. This isn't a wrestling ring.

On a tangent, it does illustrate my theory that unusual or inaccurate opinions are often formed of posters after just a handful of threads; whether correct or not, a lot of folks aren't aware of the impression that they're sending.

Personally, I'd flee Doc's DM like a rabid puffin-dingo. There ARE bad DMs, and life's too short to keep playing with them.

 

[Piratecat]

Just like the people who walked out on your first attemped at DMing Piratecat?

Touche'! What I would do here is make a list of things that were bothering me, so that the DM at least knew; I'd try to be supportive and non-confrontational, instead of being aggressive and disparaging.

My first DMing attempt was Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. Once they realized they were in a space ship, they tried to leave. I shut the hatch on them; instead of exploring, they sat next to the hatch for 12 hours waiting for it to open. I virtually flung a laser pistol at 'em; they wouldn't touch it. Then, once the hatch opened and their characters were back outside, the players stood up and announced that we should go do something outside too.

Sigh. So very embarrassing.

 

[Forrester]

1) puts a party with 2-2nd and 2-3rd characters against a CR: 5 encounter, miscounts how far gone (negative hp) one is, then lays the blame for the death at the hand of the only PC left standing. (Didn't stabilize him, even though he was dead by then.)

2) Dismisses out of hand any feat or domain from FRCS or Dragon without review, while allowing a prestige class from the web and other house rules.

In his defense, a party with average level of 2.5 should be able to handle a CR5 encounter. Perhaps with a character death, but them's the breaks. Let me guess -- when you were 1st level, you expected him to line up pairs of goblins and orcs for you to kill, right, because ALL encounters should be 1/4 as strong as the party.

Also in his defense, much from FRCS and a TON of stuff from the Dragon is incredible cheese (Improved Rapid Shot, anyone?). He should at least be willing to review it, though.

 

[Al]

On Advancement Rate and Power of Foes

On Advancement:
There is nothing wrong with rapid advancement. It is perfectly plausible that a strong party (for their level) can and will get through a series of encounters in a session such that they level up rather rapidly. Assuming an encounter takes roughly one hour (probably an overestimate) and you use two enemies of equal CR (or XP equivalent) against a party of four (you don't honestly propose that all of the encounters are 1/4 the power of the party: we dispensed with this farce long ago) then for a four-hour gaming session average duration the level rate is roughly 2/3 level per session (more than 3/5). Factor in roleplay XP, quest XP and the like and you can plausibly reach 1 level per session, especially with 'big boss' encounters distorting the levelling rate.

On Power of Foes:
The power of the foes should be what the PCs should handle (just!) It is pointless throwing a series of encounters against them with ELs equal to their average CR- there is little tension, the PCs never feel under realistic threat and the sense of accomplishment is diminished. The interesting battles are the close ones and the ones where the party can only marginally defeat the foes. I ran a very good battle with 2 CR17, 1 CR16 and 2 CR15 foes against a party of six, level 14-17. Their tactics were generally solid. If the PCs *can* defeat enemies higher level than they, good for them. It is not necessarily DM incompetence.

 

[maddman75]

I have to chime in on advancing once a session. On average, our group levels once a session. There are two reasons for this

1- We only play once a month
2- We play between 8 and 15 hours
3- We like tough fights. By that I mean my players get *pissed* if an encounter only takes 20 percent of the resources! I usually run combats at +1 or +2 CR, with +3-5 for major fights. ANything less and they get bored.

I do agree that leveling up after three fights is too much.

It sounds to me like Doc's style and that of his DM didn't match up, probably best for all involved that he move on.