Silly economics of DnD

Wolfen Priest said:


I for one will be buying this product if it's even reasonably good. It's clear to me from all these 'D&D economy' threads that the d20 market could sure use a well-thought-out product which incorporates fantasy elements, as well as an 'adventuring' economy, into the D&D game, rather than just historic data.

Take a long look at it. I think it will be something that will serve as a useful, long-term reference work for all GMs who are building and maintaining campaign worlds with the usual cultural bases drawn from historical Europe.

Cheerio,
Gary
 

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One thing I keep thinking is the relevance druids would play in a fantasy world's economy. Casting spells to help bring in a better crop would certainly be the best way to help eliminate starvation. Having an abundance of food would surely propel the economy above that of the real Medieval Europe.

Also, disease would scarcely be a problem, with clerics in every town. I would imagine with such goings-on, the number of atheists would be next to zero, and piety would skyrocket. I'd also bet wealthy individuals would be more than willing to zealously give to their nearest temple in their desparate hopes of escaping the flames of the abyss. If the church were truly good, it would disperse this money among the poor.
 

seasong said:
Firstly, it is sooo cooooool that you're on these boards :).
(end fanboy mode)

Thanks, amigo. Rest assured I wouldn't be doing so if I wasn't having at least a little fun:)

[B[The Church of feudal Europe was practically an auxiliary government - no reason to treat it separately from the rest of the aristocrats. And economically, peasant/middle class coins which go to Church militias is no different from coins going to noble militias. Particularly since the militias were so fragmented already.[/B]

Oops! Better rethink that. The tension and wars between church and state in medieval times was considerable and frequent. Both sought to rule the other.

[B[Political effects, of course, are an entirely different matter. Or rather, a clergy with real powers would have the above effect.

A real deity will have effects in accordance with that grave entity's will... which could easily mean a church with little or no economic influence at all. For example, if priests are required (as some religious monks were) to live only on charity and to possess no material things past a change of clothes and good shoes.

The "respected, influential, and active" could well be true, but does not indicate a corresponding impact on the economy. [/B]

Were the model for the various deities of the various mythological and fantastical pantheons based on your assumptions as stated, I would have to agree in general. As they are not, I can freely say that the matter will most likely not resemble what you suggest, other that the fact that the priesthood exercising considerable powers of supernatural and readily observed sort will be most influential, for they are the voice of potent deities who might just send down some plague, a thunderbotl, or the like on the heads of the people who offend.

In all, the prevelence of clergy shoould be skin to the medieval model, their activities and role expanded because the deities of the fantasy world are manifold, manifest, and their ecclesiastical servants on the world exercise great power.

Cheerio,
Gary
 

Wolfen Priest said:
One thing I keep thinking is the relevance druids would play in a fantasy world's economy. Casting spells to help bring in a better crop would certainly be the best way to help eliminate starvation. Having an abundance of food would surely propel the economy above that of the real Medieval Europe.

Also, disease would scarcely be a problem, with clerics in every town. I would imagine with such goings-on, the number of atheists would be next to zero, and piety would skyrocket. I'd also bet wealthy individuals would be more than willing to zealously give to their nearest temple in their desparate hopes of escaping the flames of the abyss. If the church were truly good, it would disperse this money among the poor.

Very much on target there! Don't limit your thinking to "druids," though. Most pantheons have deities concerned with the aspects you note, so all manner of clergy would be around in most societies seeing to the sorts of things you note. I cver this extensively in the EVERYDAY LIFE work mentioned earlier.

Fact is in reading medieval history as I do periodically I was struck rather suddenly with the realization that I had in previous times given short shrift to the role of the clergy. I expect many of the long-time gamers to questioon my new thinking rather vigorously, but I believe I can ably defent the new thinking--new to me, at least :D

Cheers,
Gary
 

Ace said:


I am not sure that normal economic ideas like you suggest would work in a D&D world. The disparity of power between say a High level commoner (Guild Master) and his Bully Boys and the mid level Rogue is pretty incredible. With a tiny amount of cunning a mid level rogue could kill every single living member of the book binders guild in a year. All of them.

<IMC, I have a pair of rogues posing as simple laborers. They had to take out a loan to buy basic equipment, and come payday, they will find they OWE money (want another loan? just to tide you over...) If this was their real lives instead of an adventure hook, they'd be well on their way to serfdom. >

The old Company store routine wouldn't work very well against anyone but low level Rogue types. How would you enforce it? Who would be stupid enough to attack a mid level rogue-- Whoops you just took 1d4 (dagger) + LH Dagger 2 (1d4) + 3d6 (Sneak) + 1 (Strength) or 16 points --- You were second level and only had 16 (Average rolls + toughness and con12) -- You are dead--

There's a couple of points I made that shouldn't be mixed. I talked about the bookbinders guild vs Joe Bookbinder as a general sort of model, then I talked about the rogues in my campaign.

Let us not make the assumption that the rogues are dealing with the bookbinding guild!

Think instead of mafia run labor union. Sure there are punk bullies to deal with, but don't forget the made men. If you cause too much trouble we refer the job to Guido and his boys and they draw up a contract. Suddenly those rogues are dealing with high level assassins. Not nearly as cool.

Then there's politics. Those workmen do important work for the city, so the union bosses have friends in high places. In fact, the mob has wrangled the position of tax collector in the neighborhood, so any problems can be dealt with by the city watch. And naturally, the mafia is a huge supporter of their church, so divine might is not far away.

On top of all that, what are the rogues looking to do? If they set up shop in competition, they'd have to confront the mafia head on. But they are currently infiltrating, so they need to play by the rules like everyone else.

The company store model works on people that have no alternative means of support. I.e. they can't go get another job. Mid level rogues have lots of opportunity to get rich, and they don't really need to scratch out a living silver piece at a time. Like I said, this isn't the rogues' real life, it's just the start of the adventure.

But thanks for commenting! Been a long time since I put that up there; forgot all about it.

Incidently, it's a PBeM (ie, slooooow) so those rogues still work for that mob, albiet in a more ... specialized ... capacity. :p

PS
 

Storminator:

Again, there is little evidence outside urban myth than 'hardline' guilds existed. They are not mentioned in any reliable historical medieval accounts of that period. The existence of guilds was mainly to ensure quality of manufacture, to protect its members from disturbances and as a social gathering. Like a 'pseudo-trade-union' (although of course in reality quite different).

Most of the manufacture in the medieval period was not done by the guilds, who did not resemble modern corporations (and certainly did not resemble the Mafia) but by small craftsmen, who trained apprentices to take over when they retired/died. The reason why most peasants didn't become craftsmen was not because some guilds would go and break their legs (for one, the local lords and church would not tolerate this, and the power of merchant guilds compared to the authorities was insignificant in this period; in DnD, neither good nor lawful rulers will tolerate this behaviour). Rather, it was due to the lack of suitable education.

Now, in DnD, *everyone* has some form of education. These are represented by those handy things, skill points. The average human peasant has 12 skill points. Given the commoner skill list, it is highly likely than he will end up putting at least a few into Craft and/or Profession. In turn, this will result in a respectable wage.

Other points:

I'd also bet wealthy individuals would be more than willing to zealously give to their nearest temple in their desparate hopes of escaping the flames of the abyss

They did anyway in medieval times, in order to escape 'eternal damnation'.

The Church of feudal Europe was practically an auxiliary government - no reason to treat it separately from the rest of the aristocrats

One thing people always overlook when comparing medieval Europe with DnD is that DnD is polytheistic. Thus, with the exception of the domination of non-human races by their respective deities, it is unlikely that a single church will have nearly as much influence as the medieval Catholic Church. A better model would be classical Greece, where the deities were certainly highly respected, but not insofar as each individual church was an auxiliary government.

The wealth disparity was enormous. Much like it is in most DnD towns.

Demographic evidence suggests that wealth disparity was less in a pre-industrial society. This is because nearly everyone was impoverished, rather than a middle-class/workers dichotomy. Of course, your other salient point still holds.

Peasants do not get 1sp/day. Unskilled labourers are paid 1sp/day, there's a _big_ difference. A peasant has land he farms. In a medieval society no unskilled labourer could afford to maintain a family, which is why until modern times only 1/3 of the population ever married.

Aside from numerous references to other professions earning 1sp per day (cook, maid, labourer, porter); the fact is that most people is most medieval societies did not own land. Serfs would till the land for the lord, and get paid an amount for it. As for the marriage anecdote, this is pure invention. Cliometricians in the 1970s built a model of medieval society using church records and the like, and the marriage figure is nearly universal. The fundamental reason is that marriage tended to increase prosperity, due to the double-wage effect: the Rowntree report on Victorian poverty corroborates this.

Conclusion:

x5 wages ;)
 

bramadan said:
Have you noticed that, in DnD world, average labourer needs to work 20 days (and not eat) in order to buy the empty barrel or a crowbar. That the daily wage will buy you a poor meals for the day (for one person) but not lodgings of any sort.


It could be assumed that most people suppliment their income with farming, barter, performing services for others and so on to make up for not making "enough" money to eat.

It could also be assumed that the base wages for, say, a mercenary, is for the *average* mercenary (1st-level warrior, all ability scores at 10), probably with relatively poor equipment. Something more than a commoner with a sharp, pointy stick is going to require more cash.

And, yes, adventurers are rich. Insanely so. I'm always fond of reminding my players when they buy a +1 sword that they've just spent 2,000 days' worth of wages for a commoner.

Who's even more rich than the adventurers? The merchants! While an adventurer may go out and blow 500 gold on a suit of armor and think nothing of it, the merchant may sell to 4 or 5 adventurers per day. A merchant is quickly going to amass a fortune, without the risk of life and limb that an adventurer faces.

The money available in a town, like hit points, is pretty much an abstraction, the way I see it. You have these merchants running around with more gold than the king, yeah, it's gonna be easy to find someone willing to pay you 4,000gp for your Staff of Big Weinerness. But you may have trouble finding someone after that to pay you 50gp for your Silicon Bag of Charisma. Again, we can make an assumption. This time, that the merchants are the ones really handling all of that "free-floating" gold, possibly just a dozen or so.

Just MHO, YMMV, etc.
 

Point of Order:

Guilds and Companies certainly were powerful and enforced their will by the end of the medieval period and into the Renaissance. In a favtasy world they would be very powerful forces even if the society was basically of the medieval.

Historically, the Hansa League of merchants is an outstanding example of a guild's power. They defeated the English, fought many wars, and held many monopolies on various trade for decades.

Gary
 

Don't forget the Templars and Hostipaliers two religious groups which held alot of power.

How ever once include multiple gods even if you only stick with just the ones in PHB imagine the Chaos.
It friday the 13 Orcus play day all the church going orcs slay an elf and deposit the head in the collection plate.:D

Now I have notice that most of gods don't mention hades. So Greyhawk is more like Greece,Roman, or Viking, choose your patron but remember his family
Swear by thor but salute Odin.

Then start mixing the cultures, Greyhawk, Celtic, Viking and imagine the blood baths if your have different churches across from each other like here in the states with Baptists on the ne corner and latter day saints on s w corner.

I notice the religious conflicts are not fleshed out in the modules and fictions too much. I guess the authors don't want to recreate Ireland etc.
 

Re: Re: Silly economics of DnD

Nightchilde-2 said:
It could be assumed that most people suppliment their income with farming, barter, performing services for others and so on to make up for not making "enough" money to eat.

I'm not sure most people could supplement their income by farming, unless they own land; if they farm a noble's land, then they are basically working two jobs, thus earning (I would guess according to the DMG) 2 sp per day rather than one. Same thing with "performing services for others." We are basically talking about typical common people working 2 jobs to make ends meet. That's all fine; but why isn't it brought up anywhere officially? Methinks it's much easier to make the economy (IMO) more realistic by increasing the wages of basically everyone.

As far as bartering, I really don't think that's a viable way to earn a living (supplemental or otherwise) in a fantasy Medieval Europe (Medieval is capitalized, I thought) unless they have something like the equivalent of the NYSE in your campaign.

basically, my whole point is that, about 1 in 100 people are going to have an 18 in either Strength of Dexterity (actually 1 in 108 unless I'm missing something, which I may be :p). If you take into account people who have 17's or 16's, we are talking a lot more. Technically, it wouldn't be very hard for someone to become a 'PC-classed' NPC, with those kinds of stats. IOW, what makes the PC's so special? Because they have real players? I just don't think that's very realistic, personally.

So, if 'normal people' are making the kind of crap wages that they supposedly do, I would think a lot more people would be taking up adventuring than there are normally assumed to be, which of course would ruin the economy, or turn the land into a wartorn mess.

Are all PC's born into nobility? They must be, or nearly so, to start out with the kind of 'starting wealth' that they have.
 
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