Silly economics of DnD

[Prince Atom]

D&D is in my opinion very like modern day tourism. The adventurers are basicaly heavily armed backpackers wandering the earth to see the sights and hear the sounds of wonderous places and get themselves into some adventures.

So what you're saying is that adventurers are basically Australians with a homicidal bent?

Seriously, I don't worry too much about the economics scale (we don't play so long we can afford to!), so when it comes time to buy things I let the party have them at the PHB prices.

When and if the PCs ever need hirelings and lackeys, I figure I'll give them Profession skills in whatever they need to know, and they all take 10 -- thus a 1st-level stonemason with Wis 12 would get a result of 15. Of course, he's taking ten times as long as he could to get it right. Only a master craftsman can whip something out and be better than an initiate who spent a lot of time on a comparable item.

Someone argued that it was unrealistic to have peasants maxed out in a skill, because peasants don't get to pick and choose like PCs. I don't think so. I think they ought to be maxed out in Profession and Craft, at the very least.

Besides, by the book, the only way to gain experience is to face and defeat (any way possible) a foe. So, to be ridiculously simplistic, the only way to get better at what you do is premeditated homicide. How many folks does a carpenter kill in his lifetime?

TWK

 

[mroberon1972]

What we need, then...

What we need, then, is a form of economics that take into account the following things:

The peasants classes' need to survive with enough food to keep a family (size depending) alive and relatively healthy. (This is D&D guys, no players want to see starving peasants in a Lawful-Good kingdom...)

The merchant classes' ability to make a profit when dealing with others. They need to sell goods to peasants, lords, other merchants, and adventurers. The best way to do this is quality levels of the item. Peasants buy the cheap, shoddy items. Lords and adventurers buy the Masterwork items. Not to mention that you KNOW that lords and adventurers are charged more for even the same item than a peasant. Lords not only accept this practice in most cultures, but got insulted when only charged "common" prices. Gods help the adventurer who lets on he found a horde of gold... He may not even be able to afford a carrot!

The lord classes' (lord, king, whatever...) need to tax and profit from the ownership of the land the people live on. How much does a lord tax? What does he tax? What is the penalty for not paying taxes?

The adventurers: A class to themselves. How on earth do you build an economic system around people who kill monsters of legend and gather their hoards. Let's see, four adventurers (level 10...) gather together and kill a dragon (cr12)... They find a hoard of 10,000 GP (no magic, just gold)...
Now you have four people with 2,500 gp each...

Lets see how that compares with others (based on Brett Evill's statistics:
~ A king would make about 200,000 GP in a year (used silver x10)
~ A peasant would make about 40 GP in a year (same)

Hmnnn... Consider 10 encounters of this level in a year (npc adventurers... That would be 25,000 in a year income each, or about 10% of what the lord makes in a year.

Lets consider where a lord gets his money: Taxes. To make his money he would have to have about 100,000 people in his domain at about 2 GP per head.
If we figure he controls a 50 x 50 mile area, 2500 square miles, then he has a population density of about 40 people per square mile overall. His city might contain 20,000 people, for about 1/5 of his total population. Another city near the coast may have 10,000 people. The rest (70,000) spread out in towns and farms.

Now add in what he charges the adventurers for "Adventurers licenses". Since it is hard to tax a wandering adventurer, this is the best way I've found. Adventurers would be fined if they are caught selling magic items, spending any noticeable amounts of gold (would vary from place to place), or "poaching". The fine would vary according to location and how lucky the adventurers had been (see above dragon hoard). Gods help the characters that try to fight the garrison sent to collect the fine; They tend to use other fined adventurers.

Whew... Gonna post this and relax a moment. This is becoming work...

 

[seasong]

This thread rocks!

The following is just some work I did a while back for a campaign in which politics and economy mattered more than most. The real-world accuracy is emphatically not guaranteed. It was simply an attempt to make something that looked reasonable and worked reasonably well in the campaign.

A typical kingdom will have a population around 22,000. Most of that will be villages and serfs.

The Serf

• $1 is a generic economic unit.
• An hour's cheap manual labor has a net cost of $0.50. This is roughly what a serf makes (although a serf's lord does not actually PAY that amount, that is what the serf gets out of the land, after rent/tax is taken out of his work by the lord). A typical serf works six to twelve hours a day, depending on the season, with most of the "break" in the middle of the day.
• A serf actually produces $1 to $2.50 per hour of work, depending on the soil, season and how good a year it is. All of that except $0.50 per hour goes to the serf's lord, and is then dispensed out into the lord's various costs (military, King's taxes, bridge repairs, personal wealth, etc.).
• A serf averages about nine hours per day, and produces an average of $4,850 per year, of which he keeps $1,650 (the rest to the lord goeth). Of that $1,650, about $1,450 is "spent" feeding a family of four (a serf, his wife, two children). Any children beyond two must pay for themselves; this usually takes care of itself, as the older children help produce enough to feed themselves and possibly care for their younger siblings. The remaining $200, plus any excess from more productive children, goes into cloth, seeds, special occasions, equipment repairs and so on.
• In all, a family of serfs puts about $3,400 + $50 per child past the second into the economy in the form of payment to their lord, purchased textiles, equipment, seeds, festivities and so on. The average serf family has three "extra" children.
• An "average" kingdom will have about 14,000 serfs.

The Middle Class

• The middle class thrive on the expenditures of the aristocracy, who need more than the simple productions of serfs. The middle class produce all the finer things in life, as well as many other specialized professional products such as stone masonry and weapons. Serfs also represent part of the middle class income, but not a large part.
• Any specialized production skill is worth at least $1 per hour. Less than that, and a serf's less skilled life becomes comparatively appealing. Highly skilled crafts, such as weapon working or magic, are worth at least $5 per hour, or the kingdom will suffer a deficit in the craft. The less common the ability, the more these base values increase. Trade between kingdoms usually benefits because one kingdom has something "very common" like $5/hour metalsmiths and the other one has something "very common" like $5/hour textile makers.
• A craftsman will typically spend four to eight hours per day at his craft, depending on the season and personal need. Over the course of a year, a craftsman should make $2,200 per $1/hour (highly skilled crafts will tend to make a net of $11,000 or more per year).
• A craftsman normally lives at a higher costing lifestyle than a serf. They typically live in towns, eat better food (and may not even cook themselves), wear better clothers (and replace it more often) and so on. A family of four will normally cost about $1,800 per year at the lowest, poorest level and $8,000 per year at the more extravagent levels. A little of the excess goes into savings; the rest usually goes back into taxes.
• An average kingdom will have about 2000 craftsmen of various levels, plus their families (usually with one or two children).

The Aristocracy

• The lowest "caste" of non-knight aristocrat rules a comparatively small patch of land, usually covering a three to twenty villages. The poorest lord will have about fifty serf families who produce an average of $3,200 per year (for a total income of $160,000). The wealthiest of the lowest caste will typically take in five times that ($800,000 per year).
• For every five to ten lower lords, there will be a higher lord who takes about 30% to 50% of their income. Average income per year for such an aristocrat will be about $1.2 million.
• Above the higher lords, of course, will be the true aristocrat, the King, who will take about 30% to 50% of their income. A typical King might have ten to twenty higher lords, and will take in somewhere around $7.2 million per year.
• A good average gross national production for such a kingdom is around $45 million.
• Lords have families who do little towards actual production; maintaining these families usually costs a pretty penny.
• About half of a lord's income typically goes to the middle class, to purchase things. Another eighth goes into maintaining the military. And the remainder goes into castles, luxury and family.

The Soldier

• A kingdom of 22,000 will typically have about 2,000 soldiers. With a total national budget of $5 million put into the military (not counting castles), that works out to an expense of about $2,500 spent per year, per soldier, of which a chunk has to be put into arms, room & board, and various bits of general equipment (wagons, horses, etc.).
• Feeding a soldier costs about $2.05 per day, or $750 per year. Room and board (other than food) ends up costing about $500 per year.
• Miscellaneous expenses usually come out to about $800-900 per year.
• The remaining $450 is the amount left for salary, arms and armor.

 

[Cerubus Dark]

Re: Simple Solution

I too have been bothered by this inconsistency. Its the monsters like Goblins and Kobolds, who are not all that powerful, but are usually carrying 2d10 Gold (or something like that)

Keep in mind that is the total value of all the crap they carry with them. The most of the time I let my players take the weapons as they are the most expensive things a kobold or goblin would carry. Very rare would be the time they found a gem worth 3d6 gold. And even then it would be on a shaman or other higher ranking person.

 

[Storm Raven]

When and if the PCs ever need hirelings and lackeys, I figure I'll give them Profession skills in whatever they need to know, and they all take 10 -- thus a 1st-level stonemason with Wis 12 would get a result of 15. Of course, he's taking ten times as long as he could to get it right.

Nitpick: Taking 10 doesn't take any longer than a normal skill check. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long, but a Take 10 effort takes the normal amount of time, it just can't be done under stressful conditions (unless you are a Rogue or similar class who took the special ability on this). Check the PHB for the specifics.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Just a quick note:

The feudal system was based on a mixture of military service, tax payment in goods and services as well as money. National armies were unknown in feudal states. The rules had only a small personal force, plus some small number of regulars to guard royal fortresses. The forces of nobles and knights, town and city levees, and peasants were called up in time of war. this gradually changed as cities developed and money become more common.

As I mentioned, Troll Lord Games in noe working on editing and layout for the D20 EVERYDAY LIFE ms. A lot of this, including income, taxation, etc. is covered therein. Those desiring to build a viable fantasy world setting should find it of considerable assistance.

In all the clergy is pretty well overlooked in this thread. It should be the single most inportant factor after the sovereign and nobles in the state. After all, the deities of a fantasy world are "real" and active. The ecclesiasts can use their powers to assist the "flock," and their presence would be like that of the clergy in the early medieval period--pervasive. These religious persons would be respected, influential, and active in all affairs on all levels of society.

Gary

 

[jasper]

First recognized the prices that adventurers pay are not what charlie commoner paids.
In the movie "if this tuesday it must be rome" , an american walks into a shoe shop and tries to buy hand made tan shoes. First a little verbage of what is tan aka black and white, then price.
The owner holds up a chalk board with $40 on in. Then the scene shifts to over the owner shoulder with $20 written on that side. Then the tourist leaves the owner opens a catalog pionts to a black and white pair of shoes "tan" with a price in the single digits.

Thanks for reminder of priest power and prescence Col P.

Now most commoners are not going down to the local McDonalds everday to eat. Also chickens reproduce and if they old enough to walk they old enough to do some work.

Copper was hardly every used alone for coinage.
Roman did do hot strikes on bronze, silver and gold
Most English coinage was a silver alloy, in fact, Good King Henry the 8th was nicknamed old copper nose near the end of his reign. This was because he reminted the groats (4 pennies) so the copper content shown through on the nose due to the most wear.

The peasants made their own beer hey I make my own beer It costs about 50 cents a bottle. Money, trade, barter, etc did go on. it was not two sheep for wood. Also some bookkeeping was done read the Parson's Letters.

Some taxes ideas,
shield tax, sword tax, beer tax, horse tax, lodging tax, tolls, tolls, and more tolls,

If you really want to be mean, force your adventurers to go to a money changer boom lose 10 % or more especially on copper coins, and if you sticking with middle ages theme no one knows or cares that half the gp are from Good King Richard 3rd reign and you on now on Prince Humperdint.

Hong thanks for the 7.5 billion chickens article gee I didn't know every village had a replicator


But if anyone does get a great working economic system which includes the core books spells and monster please post it.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Little item to think about.

In the late 1800's and early 1900's before WW1 Britain was the single greatest power in the world.

This was both militarily and economically.

Yet at this same time a full 25% of the British population on the home isle did not make enough money to afford the minimum healthy requirement of food every year.

The wealth disparity was enormous. Much like it is in most DnD towns.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

As I mentioned, Troll Lord Games in noe working on editing and layout for the D20 EVERYDAY LIFE ms. A lot of this, including income, taxation, etc. is covered therein. Those desiring to build a viable fantasy world setting should find it of considerable assistance.

In all the clergy is pretty well overlooked in this thread. It should be the single most inportant factor after the sovereign and nobles in the state. After all, the deities of a fantasy world are "real" and active. The ecclesiasts can use their powers to assist the "flock," and their presence would be like that of the clergy in the early medieval period--pervasive. These religious persons would be respected, influential, and active in all affairs on all levels of society.

Gary

I for one will be buying this product if it's even reasonably good. It's clear to me from all these 'D&D economy' threads that the d20 market could sure use a well-thought-out product which incorporates fantasy elements, as well as an 'adventuring' economy, into the D&D game, rather than just historic data.

 

[seasong]

Firstly, it is sooo cooooool that you're on these boards .
(end fanboy mode)

In all the clergy is pretty well overlooked in this thread. It should be the single most inportant factor after the sovereign and nobles in the state.

The Church of feudal Europe was practically an auxiliary government - no reason to treat it separately from the rest of the aristocrats. And economically, peasant/middle class coins which go to Church militias is no different from coins going to noble militias. Particularly since the militias were so fragmented already.

Political effects, of course, are an entirely different matter.

After all, the deities of a fantasy world are "real" and active. The ecclesiasts can use their powers to assist the "flock," and their presence would be like that of the clergy in the early medieval period--pervasive. These religious persons would be respected, influential, and active in all affairs on all levels of society.

Or rather, a clergy with real powers would have the above effect.

A real deity will have effects in accordance with that grave entity's will... which could easily mean a church with little or no economic influence at all. For example, if priests are required (as some religious monks were) to live only on charity and to possess no material things past a change of clothes and good shoes.

The "respected, influential, and active" could well be true, but does not indicate a corresponding impact on the economy.