Silly economics of DnD

[Lord Vangarel]

This thread inspired me to look into how much money a peasant has under the 1sp/day wages assuming he gets food and accommodation free.

What is obvious is that the normal peasant cannot afford most of the equipment detailed in the PH. The peasant earns say 5sp a week, of this some will be payable in taxes, if the local lord charges 1sp per adult in taxes and our peasant has an average family then 2sp of his income will go in taxes leaving him 3sp per week of disposable income. Some of this will be spent so the peasant will only have say 50-100sp per year to spend on goods or 5-10gp. As far as I'm concerned this is fine, I don't want my peasants to be richer than this if you do fine, it doesn't break the game.

What all this leads to is questions as to how merchants then earn their money if the peasants are so poor. It makes some prices listed in the PH laughable. I'm now looking into how merchants earn their money. My goal is to try and prove whether the economy can be a working model. if the peasants are so poor who has enough money to pay the merchants?

What should also be obvious is that starting money for characters is also massively high based on the current system. Also why do monsters have so much treasure?

 

[Vaxalon]

A large merchant class requires a large middle class to sell to. Merchants in a feudal economy are rare, and those that exist sell almost exclusively to the nobility. The exception would be the "tinker" who doesn't sell nearly as much goods as he does his services fixing things.

 

[S'mon]

And S'mon, don't change that cost for chainmail! Armor of that sort is like KarinsDad suggested about horses. I have really high prices for armor, weapons, and horses (especially trained war horses) now because of metal and labor costs, the time and skill required in regards the former, the breeding and training for the latter. OF course one can buy a "used car" horse of a few grand, but that war horse is a Ferarri!

Cheerio,
Gary

Gary, the 3E costs for chainmail (150 gp for full suit, 100 gp for shirt) are fine, although a bit higher than your 75gp cost in 1e (I prefer your 25 gp cost for riding horses to the 'modern' 75gp, but that's another topic). I was referring to 3e's silly, ridiculous stated cost of 30gp for a simple _length_ of chain, 10 feet long! As you can see, this is far too much. Maybe 3sp is too little, but certainly no more than 1gp.

BTW in my campaign a labourer earns 1sp a day and can buy food for maybe 5 cp and cheap beer at 1cp/tankard. If the weather is good he's in clover!

 

[S'mon]

This thread inspired me to look into how much money a peasant has under the 1sp/day wages assuming he gets food and accommodation free.

What is obvious is that the normal peasant cannot afford most of the equipment detailed in the PH. The peasant earns say 5sp a week, of this some will be payable in taxes, if the local lord charges 1sp per adult in taxes and our peasant has an average family then 2sp of his income will go in taxes leaving him 3sp per week of disposable income. Some of this will be spent so the peasant will only have say 50-100sp per year to spend on goods or 5-10gp. As far as I'm concerned this is fine, I don't want my peasants to be richer than this if you do fine, it doesn't break the game.

What all this leads to is questions as to how merchants then earn their money if the peasants are so poor. It makes some prices listed in the PH laughable.

Peasants do not get 1sp/day. Unskilled labourers are paid 1sp/day, there's a _big_ difference. A peasant has land he farms. In a medieval society no unskilled labourer could afford to maintain a family, which is why until modern times only 1/3 of the population ever married.

1 sp is subsistence wage for a single individual. A peasant family with 2 adults and 4 children probably generates around 4 sp/worth a day net, in food, clothes, tools etc, not money of course. Maybe 5sp before tax, which works out as tax revenue of 1sp/family/day.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

In my campaign I'm assuming that an unskilled labourer cannot live without some outside support so they form a large part of the lower class. Likewise peasants are in a similar position however these have land. They work the land and earn roughly 2sp per day per person, so a small farm with 4 unskilled labourers and 1 farmer earns 10sp per day of which 4sp is paid in wages earning the farmer (before costs and taxes) 6sp/day.

Virtually all unskilled labourer's require their lodgings and food to be provided although they could probably afford food if necessary so the labourer's above are living on or around the farm.

In towns and cities the unskilled have a choice, work as a virtual slave (unskilled labour), turn to a life of crime, become an adventurer, or learn a profession probably by being an apprentice. Most unskilled labourer's cannot simply become craftsmen because they cannot afford the tools necessary so they are trapped within a select number of choices.

 

[Conaill]

Just a little BUMP to resurrect this thread.

See also this more recent thread

 

[Col_Pladoh]

S,on, I was thinking more in terms of the LA game and a generic monetary system, not commenting on the 3E prices.

Elsewhere I have mentioned that I have a generic-type reference book with D20 data in it due out from Troll Lord Games late this year ot early next. this is germane here because I propose and give some details of a far better economy and greater wealth for the lower classes in a fantasy world because of active deities and use of magic. That also provides for wealthier middle and upper tiers, and gives the criminal class a lot more to steal

Cheerio,
Gary

 

[jgbrowning]

well

I’ve been in some of those countries and you can buy lunch for $1 or even less.

The reason they can survive there is because even on their low incomes, they can still afford the necessities.

But, the DND wage to goods cost ratio is so out of line that a peasant in a DND world could not survive. And, if the peasants do not survive, neither do their overlords.

well assuming the average income for a 3rd worlder was 1000$ thats less than is needed for 3 1$ meals a day.

wage earner.. 1 sp a day...

he buys
1 pound flour 2 cp.
1 chicken 2 cp.
some vegies.. 1cp.
and this (probably) is all the food he needs for two maybe three days.

he earns 60cp a week (day off) and spends 15cp a week on food, and has 45cp a week for others (clothing, shelter).

Also since you've been to the 3rd world you know that shelter doesn't mean owning your own house.

joe b.

ps. this laborer is probably doing better financially than the peasant farmers. He's probably hording what money he can to give to his family.

 

[jasamcarl]

Let's get one thing straight. The hireling prices reflect the value of npc classes to adventurers. It's a balance issue, given that, if they were much higher, they wouldn't be used at all.

That being said, there are a number of ways the wage model in the DMG can be said to work. One is that very few individuals draw their full allotment of resources from a monetary economy. You could say that hirelings IN YOUR WORLD only work for short stints to compliment their lifestyle with luxerys available in a broader market, but tend to revert to barter and subsistence production. For the urban expert elite, speculation on state and patrician debt would be another source of non-production related income. There are a number of setting-specific ways to explain those prices.

Me? I don't care. My perspective is that the hirelings play no greater role than to serve my party, and i will not modify the balance of the game for my own personal gratification.

 

[LostSoul]

Looking at this thread another couple of months later, I've come to the conclusion (realization?) that the PHB prices (and the DMG treasures) are meant for PCs and game balance. Not for your typical farmer.

I don't think it's any big deal.

What I've done in my campaign was to set the income of a typical peasant per year, based on 1sp = 1 week's worth of food. Then I scaled all costs to fit in with that. I charge prices based on what I think work, and I award treasures with that in mind.

It took a long time for the PCs to get "rich" (finding treasure in coin hard to come by), but now that they are it isn't really a big deal.

Anyways. I guess my view these days is that, if you don't feel like the PHB prices work for you, go with your gut instincts. If the players feel like something's wrong, then you have a sit down (thanks Sopranos) and talk it out.