Silly economics of DnD
- Thread starter bramadan
- Start date
RangerWickett
Legend
Hey, would somebody like to write a book about this? Natural 20 Press is always looking for interesting submissions.
Vaxalon
First Post
Middle class wages, middle class values
If you're willing to put in middle-class economics, are you also willing to put in the sociopolitical changes that a strong middle class caused (and are still causing) in the real world?
The appearance of a strong middle class in 12th century Flanders, Venice, and other trading powers of medieval europe had far-reaching effects. The more widespread wealth also meant more widespread power, and the autocratic monarchies started to lose power to the trading guilds. The gradual development of modern democracies can be traced directly to the growth of the middle class in Western culture. Public literacy increases, and with it the creation of libraries, universities, and the printing press.
How do you reconcile a middle-class wage given to someone who doesn't have the political power to keep it? Clearly, in any feudal society, it is in the interest of the lord to confiscate anything, whether it be money, magic, or weapon, that would give his serfs any measure of power. So if you use some sense of "realism" to increase the wages across the board, then it would be unrealistic not to give them an across-the-board increase in power as well.
If you're willing to put in middle-class economics, are you also willing to put in the sociopolitical changes that a strong middle class caused (and are still causing) in the real world?
The appearance of a strong middle class in 12th century Flanders, Venice, and other trading powers of medieval europe had far-reaching effects. The more widespread wealth also meant more widespread power, and the autocratic monarchies started to lose power to the trading guilds. The gradual development of modern democracies can be traced directly to the growth of the middle class in Western culture. Public literacy increases, and with it the creation of libraries, universities, and the printing press.
How do you reconcile a middle-class wage given to someone who doesn't have the political power to keep it? Clearly, in any feudal society, it is in the interest of the lord to confiscate anything, whether it be money, magic, or weapon, that would give his serfs any measure of power. So if you use some sense of "realism" to increase the wages across the board, then it would be unrealistic not to give them an across-the-board increase in power as well.
Re: Middle class wages, middle class values
You are assuming that the increase in wages is meant to reflect a socio-economic power level. It is not. It is meant to reflect a correction of a mistake in the book.
If they would have multiplied the hireling wages by 5 in the first place, very few people would have had any problems with the economic system and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Maybe there would be a few prophets out in the wilds shouting that hirelings are paid too much, but most people would probably consider them to be a fringe group because the ratio between goods and services would be at least understandable by the average person (unlike the core rules).
Vaxalon said:
You are assuming that the increase in wages is meant to reflect a socio-economic power level. It is not. It is meant to reflect a correction of a mistake in the book.
If they would have multiplied the hireling wages by 5 in the first place, very few people would have had any problems with the economic system and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Maybe there would be a few prophets out in the wilds shouting that hirelings are paid too much, but most people would probably consider them to be a fringe group because the ratio between goods and services would be at least understandable by the average person (unlike the core rules).
SableWyvern
Cruel Despot
I am using the x5 wages for a simple reason.
It makes more sense to my players and I. Usually, we play in campaigns were the locals gather in inns for a beer, and the bulk of the population can afford a few luxuries. Despite the fact that farmers probably live with a predominantly subsistence lifestyle and barter for most goods, they have enough coins for the odd luxury purchase. The bulk of city dwellers are generally lower-middle class or better.
The prices in the PHB/DMG do not reflect this.
x5 wages fixes that problem.
Neither myself nor my players care about what effect this might have on the deeper socio-economic situation. The amount of research I would have to do to create a realistic socio-economic setting would be grossly excessive in relation to any benefits for the campaign.
Without that research, neither myself nor my players are aware of what those implications may really be. And ignorance is bliss. IOW, there is absolutely no reason, nor any real benefit, from such a realistic economic of social simulation.
If you believe that the system as written is historically accurate, and any change would destroy your suspension of disbelief, fair enough. We don't have that problem.
Due perhaps to our ignorance, a problem with SOD did exist with the system as written.
It makes more sense to my players and I. Usually, we play in campaigns were the locals gather in inns for a beer, and the bulk of the population can afford a few luxuries. Despite the fact that farmers probably live with a predominantly subsistence lifestyle and barter for most goods, they have enough coins for the odd luxury purchase. The bulk of city dwellers are generally lower-middle class or better.
The prices in the PHB/DMG do not reflect this.
x5 wages fixes that problem.
Neither myself nor my players care about what effect this might have on the deeper socio-economic situation. The amount of research I would have to do to create a realistic socio-economic setting would be grossly excessive in relation to any benefits for the campaign.
Without that research, neither myself nor my players are aware of what those implications may really be. And ignorance is bliss. IOW, there is absolutely no reason, nor any real benefit, from such a realistic economic of social simulation.
If you believe that the system as written is historically accurate, and any change would destroy your suspension of disbelief, fair enough. We don't have that problem.
Due perhaps to our ignorance, a problem with SOD did exist with the system as written.
LostSoul
Adventurer
Question about x5 wages:
In what form do they recieve thier payments?
I'd imagine a farmer who farms makes that x5 wage from what he sells - mainly, his crops. Do the prices in the PHB reflect this?
I have no idea how many pounds of grain a farmer can farm in a year, day, week, month.
In what form do they recieve thier payments?
I'd imagine a farmer who farms makes that x5 wage from what he sells - mainly, his crops. Do the prices in the PHB reflect this?
I have no idea how many pounds of grain a farmer can farm in a year, day, week, month.
SableWyvern
Cruel Despot
LostSoul said:
I've got no idea. If I need to know how much money an NPC has, I'll pretty much give him whatever I think is appropriate. The whole wages thing really only has relevance to me if the PCs want to hire someone, or hire themselves out.
SableWyvern
Cruel Despot
LostSoul said:
Just had a quick look, and confirmed my suspicions.
The wage list only covers those professions that actually receive a wage (rather than "self-employed" (for lack of a better word) types.
As I recall, this thread previously discussed the fact that in general, income derived directly from a craft skill or the like is significantly higher than the listed wages anyway.
If you want a more detailed investigation of the issue, you'll have to wait for someone more motivated than me. As I stated previously, I'm happy to just x5 and leave it at that - unless someone comes up with a significant flaw beyond realistic socio-political simulation etc...
Edit: based on the fact that the original thrust for change came from high prices vs low wages, I'd guess someone who's income was based on actual sale of goods (eg, your farmer) wouldn't be poorly off by comparison. (less well off, but not destitute - quite possibly better balanced against upper income workers).
Whatever, I'm too lazy to think this through any further.
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